Baptism, Homosexuality, and More: Examining Secondary Issues

Jon

Hey everyone, welcome to That's a Good Question, a podcast of Peace Church. This is a place where we answer questions about the Christian faith in plain language. I'm Jon, I serve as a pastor at Peace Church and I also get to serve as the weekly host of this show. You can always submit questions to peacechurch.cc/questions. We'd love to hear those questions and we're excited to answer some today. Today I am here with Cheyenne.

Cheyenne

Hello.

Jon

Cheyenne is our Women's Ministry Director here at Peace Church, does an awesome job of leading and teaching that ministry and excited to get to talk about some fun topics today.

Cheyenne

I'm excited to be here.

Jon

Producer Mitchell, do you have a question for us today?

Mitchell

Yep, here we go.

Mitchell

How hard should Christians fight for secondary and non-salvation issues when it comes to someone's salvation or even church unity, such as a stance on homosexuality, ordaining women or evolution or things like that?

How hard should Christians fight for secondary and non-salvation issues when it comes to someone's salvation or even church unity, such as a stance on homosexuality, ordaining women or evolution or things like that?

Jon

Yeah, great question. So I think we have to take that in a couple of pieces. So they bring up that there is this idea of secondary issues. So there's some secondary issues in the church and in theology. So let's maybe start by talking about what the secondary issues are versus first issues.

Cheyenne

Sure. So first issues, I think they, in the question, already defined it has to do with salvation. Yeah. Beyond that, I mean, it's the essential, right, doctrines that make you a believer or not a believer. So, and then secondary would be still matters of urgent importance that don't necessarily make you saved or unsaved, but that definitely have to do with your sanctification, with our sanctification and walking in holiness and obedience to the Lord has to do with our Bible literacy and how we're reading and interpreting scripture, which can have an effect on all different areas of church life and of our own faith, right? I guess that's where I first go as far as dividing first and second issues. Is that how you would also break it down?

Jon

Totally. So first issues are things that, that's what makes you a Christian or not a Christian, right? So belief in the gospel, was Jesus the son of God? Did he die on a cross for our sins? Do you have to have faith to be saved? Do you believe in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as God? Some of those things are things that have just always defined somebody as a Christian or not a Christian. That's kind of first issues thing. And so I think the person asking the question, if I remember right, some of the topics they said I think are rightly categorized as not first issues. You can be a saved, born-again Christian and fall on what you and I might call the wrong side of those issues. But we're not saying you're not a Christian, but we would say that you're maybe not following parts of scripture quite properly. Now, I want to also jump in and say, unfortunately, I've had a lot of people come to me over the years and say, well, Pastor Jon, that's a secondary issue. You know, we shouldn't talk about that. That's not a big deal. And what I want to say is I would call that like biblical minimalism. And that's not what we want. So It's true that somebody can believe the wrong thing about some of these topics and still be a saved Christian We can call them brothers and sisters in Christ and yet our goal isn't to just follow like the minimum of what we can believe From scripture. We want to follow the maximum of what the Bible tells us

Mitchell

Well the way that I've always heard it was that there's heresy and there's error right when you're on the wrong side of these things, both of them are bad, but one of them is you're no longer a Christian, right? So error is still not good, right? Going along your same idea, we're not going for the minimum, but yeah.

Cheyenne

So part of what you're saying too is that there's more than two categories even, right? That there's maybe even more of a spectrum somewhat, but that the secondary issues are still that side of the spectrum is worth contending for. And contending for not just so that we're right, but really it's also contending for so that we're not putting ourselves in danger because it has to do with life and godliness.

Jon

What the Bible says is not just true, but it's good for us.

Cheyenne

Yes, right, right. And so that is, I think, why it is important to contend for these secondary issues like what were mentioned. So I don't remember, did you specifically name what those issues were that you had in this question? That they rounded up?

Jon

The listener question did.

Mitchell

Yep, so they mentioned homosexuality, women in ministry, or ordaining women, evolution, things like that is what they said.

Jon

So, shall we jump into one of those? Sure. So Cheyenne, I feel like this is a great conversation for us to have. Let's talk about women who serve, lead, or teach in ministry. I don't know if you want me to start or if you want to jump into that, but here at Peace Church, we look at the Bible and we look at passages like Ephesians 4 and 1st Timothy 2 and the beginning of Genesis and other places all throughout scripture, we see this as a not just a couple of texts, but Genesis through Revelation, the picture that scripture paints of men and women that we are equal in value. We're both made in God's image and yet we are distinct in role. God has made men and women different and he's given us different roles in the home and in the church. And so people have different perspectives on that, but that's where we come down. And so that plays out in a few different ways in how we do church also. We believe that women absolutely have the gifts of leading and teaching. And yet we think scripture does speak to where those gifts should play out, how that plays out in relationship to adult men in specific. And so, for example, for us at Peace Church, we would say that the role of pastor and elder is something that God has called men uniquely to. Preaching on a Sunday morning. We'd say that's something that God's called men uniquely to and yet Cheyenne you have an amazing gift and ministry of doing leadership and teaching in our church. Do you want to just talk about your thoughts on that?

Cheyenne 

Yeah. So I mean, I think that men and women are both gifted with the spiritual gifts, which includes teaching and includes leadership and administration. But like you said, there's a created order both for marriages and for the church leadership. And so it's modeled, you know, it's modeled both ways for each other of what that order is. So it doesn't mean that as a woman, I can't use my gifts for teaching or for leadership or that other women in the church shouldn't use theirs. It just means we want to find the right ways to be using those. And so we use those in women's ministry, women teaching women, Titus talks about that, that the older women, and doesn't just mean by age older, but the more mature women who are spiritually more knowledgeable, maybe should be using their gifts to teach and mentor the younger ones. I think a lot of times in churches, it becomes a lot of focus on the negative of what women can't do and how restrictive that is. But we're not making like, we're not making this up just to create a, I don't know, a macho boys club here, right? It's about believing what the Bible says. And like you said, like we were even saying before, as we were talking about secondary issues, it's about believing that the Bible does have what's best in mind for us. So...

Jon

Right. I've said before that, like, especially when I was in seminary, it would have been easier, it would have been more popular to be on the other side of this issue, but that's not what we do it for. We do it because we look at the Bible and we're trying to be obedient to the scriptures. So, we have what we believe that the Bible clearly teaches as truth. This is God's design for us. We would say that's what's good for us. Personally, as a pastor, I've served in two other denominations where we had, I worked with fellow pastors who were on the other side of this issue who believe differently. And like we've been saying, I would say that they are saved Christians. They believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior. You know, he was the son of God. He died for their sins. He rose again. They believe those things. They were saved. And yet, I'd say they were living in disobedience to scripture on this issue. Yeah, that was you would say about that.

Cheyenne

Yeah, yeah, I would, I would agree with that. There, you know, not every church probably has the opportunities that we do have here for peace. But, I don't know, as a women's ministry director, that's something that I'm really passionate about is trying to create spaces where women can, can use their gifts so that it doesn't feel like they're being excluded from anything. There's, there's all kinds of opportunities for women to use their gifts and teaching and I would hope that that would be something that all churches are looking to and pouring time into also. Yeah

Jon

So I think to one part of the question was how hard should we fight? Is that right? How should how hard should we fight about an issue like this? Yeah, I was just gonna ask, you know Imagine there's a woman in a congregation in a church situation who says I feel called to this, what would be our response? How hard would we fight against that? Or would we just say, oh, no, let's let this happen? So a woman who feels called to be an elder, maybe, say.

Cheyenne

OK, well, I think that if we are believing that the Bible says the elders should be men, then I think we should stick to that, not compromising that. Because what does that say about, what does that say about our hermeneutics? What does that say about our belief in the Bible if we let go of that? Now, is it wrong for someone to go to a church where not everybody agrees on that? I don't know, Bob. I don't know. What would you say, Jon?

Jon

I think that sometimes in certain communities, you might not have as many opportunities or as many options and have to make some concessions as to what church you're going to be a part of and some of the theological beliefs that they take on secondary issues, right? Right. And you're never, I think it's pretty much true that almost no two Christians are ever going to agree 100% on every issue So you do have to choose there are there are issues that you have to be okay with hey We don't see this eye to eye and that's okay Um, there's some that you shouldn't be okay with but you do have to be okay with some so now honestly here at peace we are very Clear about where we're at on important issues. We teach them in our membership class. We do share with people Hey, this is where we're at on this. That's not changing because it's what the Bible says. And so if you're not comfortable with that or if you can't joyfully follow leaders that lead this way, then you really shouldn't be a member of this church. So we say that and we mean that very seriously. Now, like you said, there are some places that maybe just don't have church options that believe the biblical thing on this. So yeah, I mean, I've been a Christian in churches that don't believe the right things on this. Yeah. And so you can do that and you try to lovingly, joyfully submit to the leaders above you and yet also try to share truth wherever you have the opportunity. And so, so yeah, I think you absolutely can do that. It's not ideal. You know, if you have a different choice, that's great. It's definitely not ideal.

Cheyenne

Yeah. And what would you say are like some of the dangers of compromising on this kind of issue when you're in a situation like that?

Jon

I think the dangers are, number one, you're drifting away from God's good design. And I think we can't always see all of the negative results of that. I think usually at first you think, wow, I'm just bending a little bit, right? I'm just bending a little bit and it'll be fine. It'll be okay. And you don't notice the consequences right away. But I think over, and we could talk a long time, I think, about some of the effects of egalitarianism on the church at large over the last 50 years, especially. But yeah, I think that's the thing is when you start to bend away from God's good design, it does have consequences, even if you don't realize it just yet. And so I've had this experience before. So a woman comes to me and says, I feel called to preach on a Sunday morning. Now, first of all, no matter what gender you are, if you come and say that to me, I'm going to say, well, you know what, there's some discernment that needs to happen here. We need to there's some maybe some training that needs to happen. It doesn't matter your gender or your age. If you come to me and say you think you should be preaching on Sunday morning, I've got some other questions and things we're going to talk about. But if, but specifically, if a woman says, I feel called to the world elder, or I feel called to teach in a group of men and women together, then I'm going to say, hey, you know what, I would love to sit down with you and talk about a couple of Bible passages. I'd love to do some Bible study with you. I'd love to connect you to some other women in our church who would love to kind of explain and think through what the Bible says about this and where some awesome opportunities to do ministry is. If you are gifted and called to teach or to lead, then great. There are places for you to use those gifts, but it might not be these first couple places that you're thinking of.

Cheyenne

I feel like, okay, one of the words that I heard you say a lot and that we've been saying a lot is calling. And I feel like a lot of time that word gets used when it comes to things like secondary issues and as a way of trumping what the Bible says and being able to kind of manipulate the interpretation to say, oh, well, this was cultural. I feel called to this. And I mean, this could be a whole nother podcast episode about calling. But where does that come from? That can be so subjective. You could say you're called to anything. And that's not necessarily true. We're called to something objective, and that is to live for Christ and to believe that what he says is true, that it trumps our feelings, even if those feelings might be tied to some kind of faith or spiritual moment or impression that we have. And so I think we got to be careful about that and letting the calling direct how we're interpreting these doctrinal issues.

Jon

Yeah, there are some, the Bible uses the word calling, there are some objective callings, but then there's also like the subjective sense of, you know, for example, I believe I'm called to be a pastor. So that is a sort of subjective, I don't have a chapter and verse that says Jon is called to be a pastor. It's kind of a subjective thing. It also won't go against Scripture. Correct. Yes. So our subjective calling can never be against what Scripture says. And then also there's some discernment process even beyond that, using Scripture, but then also friends, family, people who know you well, your pastors, your elders, to help you think through a calling. I remember actually I've one time had a young guy come to me and he was in Bible college at the time and he said to me, he said, Jon, I believe I am called to speak to really large crowds of people. I remember saying, interesting. I've heard you teach before. I actually think that you do have the gift of teaching this whole idea of large crowds. And he was saying, I mean, I think he's explicitly said like hundreds of thousands of people. And I said, well, maybe. And that's awesome. The Lord might do that through you. But I don't know. Let's wait and see. You know, why don't you use the teaching that you've got? But that's where calling gets kind of subjective. And it's more like, well, let's wait and discerning and be see. But the most important thing, like you just said, is your subjective calling can never go against what scripture objectively says.

Mitchell

So can I ask a question? Teeing up off of that? So what's the difference between something like women's ordination and then something like homosexuality? Would we put those in different tiers? How would we address those things?

Cheyenne

I would put them in different tiers. I think women's ordination is one where there's a little bit more leeway on that one. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be complementarian, but if I was in a community where my only choices were egalitarian churches, I think that I could faithfully be a part of a congregation that believed that. Now, when it comes to homosexuality, I don't. I think that that's a hard line that we draw and that we contend for because that is, you know, you want to give the most priority to the most clarity and the most urgency that Scripture gives it. And Scripture has a lot of pretty, pretty clear, pretty explicit and dangerous, like words of warning when it comes to homosexuality. And we love all of our neighbors, right? No matter what gender identity they would like to choose, no matter what sexual orientation they feel they have. But when it comes to how we are, what we are believing about them as a person, because it comes down to personhood, right? That's an essential doctrine.

Jon

Well, yeah, and I think it goes to an X, I think the homosexuality issue takes it to a next level because you're explicitly calling not sin what the Bible calls sin. I think that takes things to a different level. You're telling somebody, and just to lay it out, actually, I want to back up and just name a couple of things. So we used a couple of, I think they're probably 10-letter words. So complementarian, by the way, that word means, believes that men and women are complementary to each other. They have complementary skills and abilities and things. So equal in value, distinct in role is usually what that word complementarianism means. We use that real quickly. Egalitarianism is the opposite of that, believing that men and women are essentially interchangeable, that they not only are equal in value, but also equal in role, that there is no distinction in their roles. But to jump back to the homosexuality issue, so let's, let me just kind of fill in some gaps of what we would say the Bible clearly teaches is that homosexual behavior is sin. There are people who live in our world that have same-sex attraction and will have to battle with that throughout the course of their life. So we're not saying that to have certain feelings, to have certain attractions, doesn't make you in a state of perpetual sin that you can never be saved from or anything like that. You have a choice. If you are same-sex attracted, then you get to choose, am I going to live a homosexual lifestyle that the Bible calls sin, or am I going to live a different lifestyle, whether that be celibacy or heterosexuality, that the Bible endorses, embraces? Yeah, so that's kind of just to give a sense of where we're at. And so, yeah, like we're saying, that's a different tier level issue because you're calling sin not sin. The Bible has some pretty strong words about that.

Cheyenne

And even going as far, you know, with homosexuality and gender identity too, you're also saying that God's design, that his created design for personhood is not correct. And so it's a much bigger, much deeper issue there. But I like what you were saying, too, about just how it relates to whether a person can be redeemed, can be saved, whether they're... So we've talked about some things that the Bible seems to be pretty clear on. What about baptism?

Jon

That's a great one. I'll start, if that's okay. Yeah, that's fine. So, I'm, as a pastor at Peace Church, we believe in infant baptism. We believe that God has a covenantal design for the family and that babies should be baptized as a part of the covenant family. But I went to a Baptist seminary, and actually, I was baptized as an adult, not a kid. I would say I was Baptist for most of my life, even though I was going to reform churches, probably not most of my life anymore, but up to a certain point, I know, right? Up to a certain point, I was baptistic in my thinking. I thought adult baptism was the only way to go, that babies shouldn't be baptized. Now I'm on the opposite side of that. So just to give you some background, I would say I have probably more Baptist friends than I do infant baptism friends. So just to kind of paint a picture of where I'm at. So I would say that baptism is a much lower down issue. I'd call that third or fourth tier issue. I'd say that there are Christians who are faithful to the Bible on both sides of that issue. I have a very clear sense of what I think the Bible teaches about this, but I also see where the Bible is not as clear as I think it is on these other issues we've talked about as it is about baptism.

Cheyenne

Yeah, I agree. I, because I both have really strong arguments. It can be, I think that there's a faithful way to read scripture both ways, even though I do fall on one side of it. I was gonna say. I was just gonna say also with baptism, I do think that one of the things with baptism that we just need to hold as important as making God big. And so I think that that is just the one risk there that I think that there is with adult adult baptism is a tendency to make it about us and not to make it about God. But I would agree with you that it's a third or fourth tier issue. So a little story if you don't want to, you don't want to use this, you don't have to, but my little story. So my husband is a fourth grade teacher and they always raise salmon in the classroom. They grow them from eggs. And so they get to like get the eggs in DNR and see the eggs hatch and then see these little salmon grow from.

Jon

No way, that's awesome.

Cheyenne

I know. Well, last year, they had one salmon that grew with a weirdly deformed head, and the kids called him Chomper because he had a major overbite and looked a little interesting. One day, one of the kids was like, they're eating Chomper. And my husband was like, no, one of the things about salmon is they are herbivores, that they don't eat meat at all. And so he went over to look up and sure enough, the salmon were eating chomper. And so they were literally biting his head off. The reason that I bring this up is because when it comes to these issues, we can sometimes contend for the faith in a way that we're biting each other's heads off. What a great, great way to make that point. And I just think that we still need to have grace with people. Galatians 5, 13 through 15 says, For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters, only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another.

Jon

What a great analogy.

Cheyenne

Think about Chopper. I like that.

Jon

That's a great way to conclude. We want to hold to the truth with lots of passion and zeal, and yet we also want to passionately love our brothers and sisters in Christ. And so we've got to, it's truth in love, right? That's the Christian life. We're supposed to have truth in love, and both of those things are critical and important. Awesome. Hey, thanks so much for being here, Cheyenne.

Cheyenne

Thanks for having me.

Jon

Thanks, everybody, for listening. If you have questions, always peacechurch.cc/questions. Have a great week.