When the Church Hurts Instead of Heals: A Conversation with Steve Midgley

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My name is Jon, and today we're talking

about a very important topic to understand from a biblical worldview, the topic of mental health and trauma. And to do that, we've got a special guest with us, Steve Midgley. Steve is the executive director of Biblical Counseling UK.

He's a pastor at Christ Church Cambridge in the UK. He's a board member at CCEF, and he's also a board member at the Biblical Counseling Coalition. He's an author. One of his latest books is Understanding Trauma, a Biblical Introduction for Church Care. So welcome to the show, Steve. Great to have you with us.

Thank you for having me on the show. I'm delighted to be with you. So just to help us get to know you a little bit more, Steve, can you tell us a little bit about, so you're the Executive Director at Biblical Counselling UK. Can you tell us a little bit about that organisation, what you guys do, what's your mission?

Sure. In all sorts of ways, many of your listeners may be familiar with the biblical counselling work that's gone on for 50, 60 years over in the States. It's been a much more recent thing here in the UK. One of the ways that we describe what we're doing is seeking to help churches as they try to bring the riches of scripture to bear on the realities of life. All of us struggle in different ways and sometimes we're not as quick or as clear as we could be

on seeing how the riches of scripture do speak into our struggles and difficulties. So we try and help churches both in ordinary conversations as well as in experienced counseling conversations as well.

Yeah, beautiful. That's awesome. What a great resource for the church and to help believers get to help each other through the hard situations that we face. So, Steve, I'd love to just start here talking about the whole topic of mental health. So one of the things that's been said in our world today is that we are in the midst of a mental health crisis or some have even called it an epidemic. So tell us a bit about that. What does that mean? Do you agree that we're in the midst of a

mental health crisis or epidemic? And if so, why? Why are we there?

There's a big question, John, which we could spend the whole rest of our time talking about really, that for sure the statistics show that the number of people who are kind of reporting struggles with their well-being from a mental health point of view, the number of people seeking out help from mental health professionals, all of those things have in recent years. And there are different ways of thinking about that. One perspective would say there is something going on in our society,

there's something going on in the pressures in our culture that really are making things objectively worse. Another perspective would say that we have begun to describe some of our ordinary life struggles with mental health diagnostic labels, and that we're medicalizing life and thinking of our difficulties in medical terms and in psychiatric terms in a way that we didn't.

I suspect it's probably a bit of a mixture of the two. I think probably both of those things are going on to explain what we're seeing in our culture at the moment.

Yeah.

So, one of the buzzwords that we hear today around this whole thing is the word trauma. And one of the reasons I call it a buzzword is because I hear it used in such interesting ways. On the one hand, I hear it used in a very real way, in a very even clinical kind of way. On the other hand, I've even had somebody said, not too long ago, I had somebody say to me

that they experienced trauma because McDonald's got their order wrong in the drive-thru. So I hear it used in such a spectrum of ways. Can you tell us a little bit about what really is trauma?

In your book, you actually use three E's to talk about trauma and how to identify it. Just tell us a little bit more about that.

Sure, yeah, I mean, I appreciate that introduction really, because I think there are real concerns about the way in which the label is being used and, you know, your point about somebody saying they're traumatized because McDonald's got their order wrong, that the idea that we're ending up trivializing the category of trauma by speaking casually in that kind of way is causing some people to say, how then does somebody who has faced appalling things on the battlefield, which have, which is so deeply and profoundly disturbed them, how, what words will they use that adequately

when the language of trauma is being used so trivially. So it's a real issue. To answer your question, though, you mentioned those three Es, and I do find them helpful. They're not original to me, but people say that there is an event, or it could be a sequence of events, something happens in a person's life,

which they experience, that's the second E, they experience as in some way overwhelming to them. It overwhelms their defences, their ability to cope. And I've heard somebody describe it as it therefore gets under their psychological skin in a way that is really disturbing. And as a result, it has, third E, it has effects going forwards in their life. Hence, particularly the idea of post-traumatic stress disorder, that PTSD kind of diagnosis, which is one of the effects going forwards.

So, as we try to think about trauma then from a biblical worldview, we hear so much from secular or from non-Christian science, you know, about the effects of trauma on the brain. So can you help us think about what is helpful from that non-Christian perspective and what is not helpful? What are some of the positive and negatives from that perspective on how does it affect the brain?

One thing to say would be that the Bible understands trauma. I mean, there's plenty of really deeply traumatic things that happen to characters in scripture. So it's not an alien topic that we've only just thought of. The Bible knows it and understands it, even if it would use different words to describe it. As we think about the research that has become very much prominent in our culture, connecting trauma with effects in brain functioning, two quick things, because again, there's a lot that could be said. I suppose one thing is to always remember a sort of a chicken and egg sort of issue when it comes

to understanding the brain. Everything that we do, everything that we feel has a sort of representation in our brains. So one would anticipate that when something as awful as trauma has happened, and when it goes on causing difficulties going forward, there will be a brain representation of that. And do we understand, you know, this is therefore a brain problem? Or is this, you know, this is a person's problem, which obviously has a kind of a brain representation? I think that I would say is, and Van der Kock's sort of book

that has been a phenomenon, The Body Keeps the Score, just has a description of the experience of trauma that I think people read and they think, oh, that's it, you know, he gets me. That is, you know, that's what's happened to me, or that's what's happened to my, you know, my son,

my husband, my wife, you know, that describes it. And so he's captured the experience very vividly and connected it with models of brain functioning. And that's, I think, you know, one of the things that have made the book such a phenomenal success.

Yeah. So as we, you know, as we think about trauma, as we think about mental health, as we think about then as Christian brothers and sisters trying to help each other through this situation, trying to be there for each other, trying to show Christian love to one another. How can we help somebody through this? One of the things that you mention in the book is identity, acceptance,

and involvement as three ways that we can help somebody or a way that somebody needs to experience in the body of Christ to go through the experience of trauma. Can you talk more about each of those?

I think in our churches, I sometimes think we fall into one of two areas. Either we can find trauma so complicated, so confusing, that we just pull back and say, I can't understand this, is too much. This needs an expert. And then we do nothing. On the other hand, we can overestimate our capacity and try and imagine that we can sort people out. You know, we've got Jesus, so we can make things better. So we sort of, you know, we dive in with very clumsy and very ill-thought-through kind of responses, which, you know, often end up being pretty hurtful and pretty distressing for people.

So what can we do? I mean, I think to listen, first up, you know, to seek to be receptive and not to be frightened of, and to be willing to hear the kind of struggles that people have experienced, not pressing them for information, because one of the things that we can, one of the ways that we can misstep is by kind of pressing people

for information of things that have happened to them in a context where they don't feel safe to talk about it. So being willing to listen to what it is that people want to tell us and to get away from a from a kind of us and themness that leads, you know, kind of, and this would apply to mental health problems more broadly, you know, that there are, there's a chunk of us in the church who are kind of nice and neat and tidy and sorted. And then there is other people who, you know, have got problems, as if we are two different groups.

And I just think that's just not a biblical way of thinking. All of us, you know, struggle in different ways. And so helping somebody who has been through some severe suffering, for whom that like they belong. They are welcome in our community. We want them to make a contribution, to be a part of our church family, because they'll bring gifts that God has given them to do so.

Yeah. Well, and so to go back to one thing that you said in there, I jumped quickly to talking about how can we as brothers and sisters help each other because I know that's a part of the mission of the CCEF is you guys talk about how that actually as Christian brothers and sisters we can help each other. But also there's a really important role for professionals. There's only so much help that we can provide to each other.

There is help that we need to go to somebody who has much more study, much more training, is equipped to help. So could we talk about that for a minute, Steve? Can you help us? Where is the line when somebody should be – I know the best answer is probably that you've got both a professional and a friend involved, but help us – where is a line

when somebody should be asking themselves the question, maybe my friends can't help me through this. Maybe I do need the help of a professional, whether that's a counselor, whether that's a psychiatrist, maybe even medication. Is there any advice that you could give to somebody considering that question of when they should reach out

for professional help?

Yeah, it's hard to be, I mean, as you would appreciate, it's hard to be absolute about that judgment call. I suppose, I mean, the first thing would be to say if somebody finds themself in a place where they don't feel safe, when their level of distress has risen to the point that they are in any way

beginning to have suicidal thoughts, then obviously at that point there's an urgent need to involve somebody with the necessary skills and experience to help them in a situation like that. And, you know, that's the first thing that is important to say. Beyond that, I think when somebody finds that the struggles they're having are getting in the way of the living of normal life, it's interfering with their relationships, it's interfering with their work, it's interfering with family life, and it means they're not able to function in some of the sort of necessities of life, then again, that would be an indication of

how, gosh, this is clearly getting in the way to the extent that seeking out somebody with more expertise would be wise. Yeah. But I think your point, John, I'd reinforce. At that stage, you know, you've got to go and see somebody expert. I need to get out of the way and just disappear. It should be both end. You say, well, you know, let me if you want me to let me go with you. Or after you've seen somebody,

if you want to talk it through what you've heard from, you know, a counsellor that you've been to see or a mental health professional you've been to see and you want to talk it through, you know, I'd be only too glad to think with you. So it can be sort of both end. And again, it's overhoming the sense of isolation that both mental health struggles and trauma can bring.

Yeah, I love that. That's good. That's good. So thinking then about some of our maybe Christian might have the question, all right, they might have the thought that maybe, is mental health actually just a spiritual issue? Is this something of, you know, unfortunately I've heard people say things as simple as, well, you just need to trust God more, you know, to sort of really reduce it and simplify it to a point that, of course, is hurtful to the person hearing that news.

What would you say to a Christian brother who's maybe said that, who's maybe said, well, you just need to trust God more. Because of course, in some sense, all of us need to have more faith, all of us need to trust the Lord more. So in some sense, there's truth in that. But also, maybe that's just too simple.

Can you speak to that a little bit?

Yes, gladly. When I try and think this issue through with people, I usually kind of end up drawing them a diagram. And I'm kind of wanting to say that there are kind of three things that we want to be thinking about. That the Bible describes the sort of the real me, that you know, the heart, the soul, you know, the spiritual core of a person, you know, with which they relate to the Lord.

We also have bodies, a physical frame, you know, we are in that sense embodied souls, is a phrase that people sometimes use which I think is helpful. And then there's stuff going on around us, you know, there are the circumstances of life, which can at times be incredibly demanding and challenging. Which of those contributes to the development of mental health struggles? Well, all of them do, because all of them affect the person.

You know, what we're doing with God affects us. What's happening in our bodies affects us. What happens in the world around us affects us. And in thinking with somebody about their struggles, I'm interested in all three of those. And I think trying to work out

what the relative contribution of body and soul and circumstances is, is never going to be possible. You know, we're never going to know that, you know, this is a 20% heart problem and a 60% body problem and a 20% circumstances problem. We're never going to have that information. And unfortunately, we don't need it because we can be concerned about all three of those

things simultaneously. And that's the right thing to do. Because the other thing, I mean, just thinking about, because your phrase, somebody says, you know, if you just had more faith, everything would be all right. I kind of think one of the things that I want to be alert to is that those people who know that they're struggling are often the people who are making most progress in their relationship with the Lord. And the people who think they're fine and you're the person, you know, with the problem, are often the people in most spiritual danger. And I just think that's worth being alert to. You know, Jesus doesn't tell the parable of the Pharisee and the tax

collector for nothing. I know, thank God that I'm not like those people over there with all of those problems, you know, and I sort myself out and I come to church every week and I never miss anything anything and blah, blah, blah. Jesus has pretty strong words for that kind of attitude.

No, that's such a good point. I mean, that's such an important biblical worldview understanding, right, is to just to know that we are all broken. We believe in total depravity, right? We are broken from the inside out, that all of us are struggling. We believe in, you know, that God has designed for us a life of what we call sanctification,

growing in holiness. So if we're sitting here thinking that we've got it all figured out and that the other people across the table are the ones who have the problem, then yeah, we've missed something really important. So yeah, just to be able to self-identify and say,

hey, I do have a problem and I'm trying to work through it. What an important and good starting place, yeah. So are there some specific passages in the Bible as we think about that? Are there some specific stories or passages that you've gone to before just to talk about the

experience of suffering and how we can face that in Scripture?

You know, there are many places in Scripture which seem to make very clear that in distinctive ways, God takes and uses suffering to mature us. I mean, they are hard verses, but you think about the beginning of James 1, and I count it, I count it pure joy in the midst of my sufferings, because I know that God is at work in those to mature me. Similar, you know, sort of the way that suffering brings character and character, hope and so on. And then you think about 2 Corinthians 1, where Paul is saying, in the midst of his affliction, he's known comfort.

And it is that comfort that he's experienced in his sufferings that he is now able to give to others. We comfort others with the comfort that we ourselves have received from the Lord. And we know this, don't we? Because Jesus suffered on the cross to win us our salvation. It shouldn't surprise us that God has this extraordinary capacity to take and use hardship in our lives just as he took and used the suffering of Christ for our salvation.

Right. James 1 has been one of those passages that's so comforting to me because, you know, not only does it call us to consider it joy, but he gives kind of an explanation. He talks about some things that are being produced in us as a result of suffering. I'm often taken comfort in that.

He says, here I've got it in front of me, he says, let steadfast, he says, the testing of your faith produces steadfastness and let steadfastness have its full effect that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. So God's doing something in the suffering.

It's not an accident, it is painful, but God is doing something. He's producing something in us that is important, that we do need as believers. So, Steve, as somebody's struggling through a mental health issue, you know, they might ask the question, the Bible calls me to have a life of joy, but I don't feel joy.

What might joy look like for somebody who's struggling, for example, with depression? How can they pursue, how can they have a proper vision of God's design for them, for joy, in the midst of dealing with that?

I'd expect that probably many of us, possibly all of us, are often guilty of conflating joy and happiness as if those are the same, and I don't think they are. I think that the joy is something deeper and fuller than just being happy. And it is, I to a sense of contentment, to a sense of rejoicing in Christ. I find joy in knowing what he has for me, the future he has for me. And so that even in the midst of hardship, we find reason to rejoice. I mean, you think about, I'm just thinking about Philippians now and I'm thinking of the way that Paul describes that where he is, you know, he's describing in the midst of hardship

that he still, he knows what is content in any and every situation, whether well-fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want, I can do this, all this through him, it gives me strength. And I think that is a deeper, richer joy that is found in Christ that is able to be experienced even in the midst of hardship.

Yeah, that's awesome. And I know you guys at the various organizations that you're a part of, yourself and other writers have produced some great stuff on those topics. Another book that I found really helpful, and I don't remember if he specifically addresses this as a mental health issue, but John Piper wrote a book called When I Don't Desire God, How to Fight for Joy.

I remember reading that a number of years ago and being really helped by it, because he addresses exactly that, of we have times in our lives when we don't experience what we would call happiness, and yet God calls us to joy. And so how do you bridge that gap of, I don't feel happy, but God calls me to joy? And what does that look like? Yeah, God's Word gives us great instruction to lead us in that direction.

Is there anything coming up on the horizon that you're writing right now or a project you're working on that you could tell us about?

There's no current writing project at the moment. I'm taking a little bit of breather after finishing the book on trauma. We're just about to have our national conference. So the very immediate prospect is in it, and it is a conference on trauma where we're launching the book.

So it's a few days of bringing together people in the UK to think on this topic. So that's in my sights. So, Steve, brother, it's been so fantastic getting to talk with you about this important

topic, mental health and trauma, something that we hear about a ton in the news and in our day-to-day conversations, something that unfortunately people even use the language lightly and yet to be able to think about and to have tools to be able to think about it from a biblical perspective, so helpful. So, Steve, brother, thank you so much for having this conversation with us. Again, the book that you just wrote and that just came out not too long ago here, Understanding

Trauma, a Biblical Introduction for Church Care, published with The Good Book Company, one of our favorite publishers. So audience, feel free to check that out. But Steve, brother, thanks for the conversation. Everybody who's listening, thank you so much for your time. We hope you have an awesome week.

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