Unveiling the Unseen: Exploring Spiritual Warfare

Jon

Oh hey, everyone, welcome to That's a Good Question, a podcast of Peace Church and a part of Resound Media. You can find more great content for the Christian life and church leaders at resoundmedia.cc. That's a Good Question is a place where we answer questions about the Christian faith in plain language.

I'm Jon. I serve as a pastor at Peace Church, and I am here with Pastor Nate.

Nate

Hey, happy to be here.

Jon

And I'm also here with, as always, Mitchell, producer.

Mitchell

Hey.

Jon

And today we get to answer some exciting questions about spiritual warfare. So at Peace Church, we've been doing a series over the last several weeks, I think it was five weeks, called "Withstand," talking about spiritual warfare, talking about the armor of God. And so we've had a stream of questions come in about spiritual warfare, and so we've saved them up, and now we get to talk about it.

Mitchell

Yeah, here we go. Here's our first question. I've been in dark places sometimes helping my adult children. On occasion, I see the enemy in another human mocking me. What is the best response to this, and am I not alone in this type of experience?

Jon

It's a scary situation to be in. So let's break it down a little bit. What do you guys think about what they're describing? Have you ever had that experience or talked with somebody who's had that experience where you feel like you see an evil spiritual force in another person? That's what I hear them saying in the question, right?

Nate

Yeah, I can't say I've had that exact experience. But I've been in places and environments where I felt not even, you know, it's kind of a unique mix of something that feels mildly physical but mostly just like a darkness. I'll be honest, I've been in some cities, even in some areas of cities, where you just go, "Oh," and then you find out later, "Oh yeah, that area is heavily involved in the occult."

Even I think of a time, certain areas I've been around New Orleans, there's a city, Santa Cruz in California, where I spent a lot of time, where I found out later, it's considered a capital for Satanism in America. So like I've definitely, I think you can have those feelings, and I don't know exactly about them seeing it in another person, you know, a demon possession. I haven't had tons of experience with that. But I will say, you know, one of the things we've been talking about as a church is that the spiritual realm is real.

This stuff is not to be kind of fluffed off as something that isn't real or isn't something that we deal with in Western society. But right away, the first thing, I always think of two things. The power of the word, that's Jesus' main weapon against the enemy when he's face-to-face with Satan himself. I always go back to the temptation in the desert and Jesus going back over and over again to his word, so relying on his word.

I've had people who, when you have those times, it's so scary and you feel so paralyzed, you don't even know. I'm trying to remember Bible verses. I can't even – nothing's coming. I always encourage people, just the name of Jesus. There is power in the name of Jesus, so if you can't say anything else, just cry out to Jesus. And I've had the one or two times where I felt really scared because there's just darkness, and in a unique environment where I just found myself going, "Jesus, Jesus," like just relying on not as some magic charm or spell, but that's the name of our Lord and Savior, and I think there's power there even when you can't think of anything else.

Jon

Yeah, and in the gospel accounts, we see the demons run from Jesus. I mean, Jesus's name and presence have special power, obviously against them. It's the enemy. So like you, I haven't directly experienced something like what the person is describing. I don't feel like I've seen physically a demon, especially like in another person, like it be manifested, but I've had some interesting experiences.

I've had times, for a long period of time, when I was preaching, I would have a really strong sense of just like a demonic presence. I used to have, at the church where I was at the time, a very high ceiling, and I used to sort of have this sense of like I'm preaching, and there's almost like this big, dark, black cloud out in front of me, kind of in the back of the room, in the ceiling, kind of manifested there.

I always had this sense of like I'm preaching, and this dark cloud is just swallowing up what I'm saying, and nobody can actually hear it, which I feel like was just kind of a visualization of what the enemy does, right? He tries to snatch up the word so it can't go deep and bear fruit in people's hearts. So that's kind of one experience.

I've had experiences where I've woken up in the middle of the night, and I can think of one specific where I woke up in the middle of the night and just went bolt upright and just started shouting because I was convinced that there was a man at the end of the bed. I think it was just kind of a dark, shadowy figure of some kind, and it woke up my wife and everything; it was just kind of a crazy ordeal. So that's the closest I've come.

I do have a relative who has experienced something kind of similar to what's being described here and has talked to me about interacting with another person who they felt like was either possessed or under serious attack by demonic forces at the time, and just their eyes and the words that they were saying did not seem like that person, and it was just evil, bad, unhealthy stuff coming out of them.

Nate

Yeah, if that's you asking, or if you've had similar experiences, I know one practical thing: seeking out a pastor or a small group leader or an elder in your church. I've had so many times where I've had different people come up to me and share an experience. And just sharing with somebody you trust and who knows God's Word well and who cares about you, having them pray with you, pray over you, I don't think you can go wrong with prayer in that circumstance either. And then if it continues and it's really intense, that will – you'll have already had the conversation open to saying, like, what are some next steps here if you feel like it's becoming repetitive and a pattern, I'd say.

Jon

Yeah, one of the things we've emphasized in the sermon series is what the text says in Ephesians 6, that our war is not with flesh and blood, but with spiritual forces. So even if you feel like the enemy is manifesting himself through another person, you have to remember that person is not the enemy. The enemy might be working through that person in some way or might be attacking or oppressing them in some way, and they're actually a victim, and you've been given a glimpse into that and are seeing that happen in some kind of way, which I can only imagine would be terrifying.

But yeah, like you said, Pastor Nate, praying, calling out in the name of Jesus, "in the name of Jesus, be gone," those are the things in those moments.

Mitchell

I think also making sure that you are truly following Christ. There's a story in Acts where there are people trying to cast out an evil spirit, and the evil spirit says, "I know of Jesus, but I've never heard of you."

Jon

I've heard of Jesus, I've heard of Paul, but I have not heard of you. And they get their butts kicked. So, making sure that we're people that would be a threat to the dark forces of the spiritual world.

Jon

That's actually really, I wasn't even thinking in that direction, but you make a really good point. That if you're asking these questions, hopefully, you're a Christian. If you're not, we'd love to talk to you about the gospel. But yeah, if you're not a Christian and you're engaging with demonic forces, that's a whole different category of things, and you're in trouble, and you need Jesus.

Mitchell

Yeah. Well, let's jump into this next question. I've heard from a pastor, not from Peace, so you guys are off the hook, say before, "If Satan is on your back, that means that he's not on mine, because he's not everywhere like God is." Are we still vulnerable at all times to Satan's schemes, regardless if someone else is feeling the heat, so to speak?

Nate

That's getting into an interesting thing. I mean, we do believe based on God's word that Satan – some people think of, I think in popular culture, God and Satan as equals, that one's good, one's bad, and that's not the case at all.

We see, as it's clearly laid out in the Bible, God is all-powerful, Satan is not. You see time and time again – think of the story of Job, where Satan has to come to God and ask for permission for something, and that opens up a whole other discussion we're not getting into today. And you even see times where Satan, the enemy, the evil one, is isolated in time and space. So, I think what that pastor is maybe trying to teach is a theological point about how Satan's not as powerful as we sometimes give him credit for.

But I would say we believe in not just Satan, but in his demonic powers. Like you referenced in Ephesians 6, it talks about all the powers and authorities. So I would say the real question isn't "can Satan be around,"

But like his plans and his workers are doing their work all over all the time. I think the bigger question is, like, kind of the last one we asked, what do I do to combat that?

I don't think you need to worry too much about is this Satan, is this a sub-demon. It could also just be your own flesh, your own sin, and so your own desire to do something that's ungodly. So I think it's an interesting thing to think and talk about, but I don't know if it's the most profitable thing to try to figure out.

Jon:

Well, I laughed a little bit as you read the question, because I assumed it was a joke that, ha ha, you know, if Satan's against you, if Satan's getting you, at least he can't get me. I hope that was a joke.

Yeah, like you said, Pastor Nate. So yeah, we do believe Satan is restricted to one place at one time. He's not God, he's not omnipresent, but he has a large army.

Mitchell:

Yeah, and I think we have to also acknowledge the reality of the forces that are demonic that are associated with him. Not everything is Satan. So if we're feeling spiritual warfare, an attack, that doesn't mean it's Satan. So if, you know, they say if someone else is feeling the heat, you might still be feeling some sort of spiritual attack. And it might not. It's probably not Satan. It could be.

Jon:

But it could be his army. Yeah. Yeah. His forces are many.

Nate:

Yeah. And I think it does. I mean, this isn't what the person's asking necessarily, but I think we, John, I'm sure you have too, we've encountered times where somebody's doing something that's clearly not Satan or demonic forces, but just either their own decisions or some brokenness in the world where they're saying, you know, you know what, I was doing this sinful thing, and let's say I was drinking and driving and I crashed my car. Man, Satan's really working overtime against me right now.

Nate:

You go, you know, I don't think you need to attribute that to spiritual warfare. I think we know pretty clearly what's going on. You did something sinful, broke laws, made unwise decisions, and now there are consequences. So yeah, I think it's important. Yeah, there's Satan, there's all of his demonic forces, but there's also other things in the equation when you're talking about hard stuff happening in your life.

Jon:

Yeah, if you find yourself saying, "The devil made me do it," you may be on the wrong track.

Mitchell:

Yeah. I've always said a glass cannot spill what it doesn't contain. It has to. No one can make you do something that wasn't already inside you. So the devil can't make you do something you didn't want to do anyways. I don't know if I used the devil negatively.

Jon:

Now you're making me think of many other questions. I just like that.

Nate:

Isn't that a "Me Without You" lyric?

Mitchell:

It is a "Me Without You" lyric.

Nate:

Okay, so why do you say "I've always said give credit," Mitch?

Mitchell:

Well, I've also – sorry, I was just going through my lyrical encyclopedia.

Nate:

I didn't have that in my head.

Jon:

Yeah, the glass can only spill what it contains.

Nate:

Yeah, that's a good one.

Jon:

I said it with a double negative. All right.

Mitchell:

Our last question. Do you think Satan has the ability to cause sickness to prevent someone from going to church? Example: only on weekends. Wait, are you asking me if he can only cause sickness on the weekends? No, I think the example is that they would get sick only on the weekends. So they can't go to church, right?

Jon:

Well, I think we've got evidence in Scripture that he can cause sickness under God's supervision. In the book of Job, Satan comes and asks God permission to attack Job's body, and he does, and that happens. So, yeah, I would say that's totally possible. I've thought of that myself sometimes. I feel like in my own life, when it just seems too clear that my sickness schedule seems to line up with the schedule of other important things that are happening in the church. We'll be right back after this break.

Elizabeth:

Hi, I'm Elizabeth, one of the co-hosts of MomGuilt, a podcast with new episodes every Monday. MomGuilt is a podcast about the daily struggles of motherhood. Stephanie and I share real experiences of MomGuilt and how we have found freedom from that guilt through the gospel. Listen to us on resoundmedia.cc or wherever you find podcasts.

Nate:

Yeah, it makes me think of a bigger question that I always have when it comes to this topic. I think you generally fall into one of two camps when it comes to spiritual warfare. You either have a tendency to err on the side of underestimating what Satan and all of his forces can do, or maybe you err on the side of over-dramatizing, maybe, and always seeing everything as spiritual warfare and everything. So I would say, you know, let's say you see a pattern of, "I feel like I get sick every Sunday morning." Don't fall prey to just going, "Hey, I'm sure that's just a coincidence, that's just my biological clock."

There might be something spiritual there, and I'd say, pray against that. Say, "God, I ask you to help me deliver me from this weekend sickness I'm getting. Lord, if there's any sort of demonic involvement, I pray that you would free me and that you would heal me," and make that prayer.

But then also, don't get so in your own head that, let's say, the next weekend comes and you feel a little bug and you go, "Oh, we're at it again," and you get so involved in that that you don't just get your clothes on and go to church. You know, I think there's a fine line between that, and it's tough because, I mean, I think what's also helpful is to know kind of your own tendency.

I have the tendency to underestimate the spiritual forces of the world. When I get sick, my first thought isn't, "Oh, is this spiritual warfare?" My first thought is, "Oh, was I too close to that sick kid at church?" That's probably me. Was I recently with John Belger? No, but I actually think it's a good challenge for me to think more through that lens of spiritual warfare.

I think for some people, if that's the first thing you think of every time something hard happens, it might be more something to go, "Hey, you might be giving too much credence to this," and maybe there's a little something to just resting in the peace of Christ to know that Jesus wins in the end. He has ultimate power and authority and nothing's happening outside of his watch and even outside of his rule and his sovereignty.

But, I don't know, Jon, you've dealt more with, I think, some of the sickness stuff. I mean, has that been – with your health stuff, has that been something that you've thought about and you've kind of wrestled through?

Jon:

Yeah, I feel like I've just kind of always viewed it as it's probably some combination of all of the above. I've always just kind of thought, "All right, I've got some just physical health issues that I have," and so there's physical factors at work. I've got – you know, there's stress factors that come into play, and then there are spiritual forces at work.

I guess I just always kind of imagine, yeah, it's probably roll the dice, it's likely there's a combination of one or two or three of those factors all at play at the same time. And I just pray accordingly that the Lord would heal me from physical sickness, that he'd not let stress impact my ability to function, that he'd cast away any spiritual attack. So I think that's kind of how I approach it, just sharing a vision.

Nate:

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. Just listening to you talk about that, it reminded me of the time where this has come up a couple times with me directly. I haven't had as much physical health issues, but this is an especially prevalent topic when it comes to mental health challenges, because you can read the New Testament and see that a lot of those things that look to manifest as mental health issues definitely have spiritual roots.

And I've had people ask me, "Do you think this is more of a spiritual thing, more than a mental or psychological thing?" And I'm a little bit more in the not A, B, but probably C, all of the above camp, is that those things can't be fully separated from each other anyway. And so my practice, along with some very tangible things I do to try to get out myself, prayer and asking God to deliver me and asking God to help me, is always a part of that equation no matter what.

Jon:

Yeah, I think that's exactly it. That's exactly, I think, the Christian worldview. We know all these things are at play. We don't know how much of which one at any given time, but we know they all are at play, and we know that the real answer is always God's help. And so that's what we cry out for.

Mitchell:

Yeah. If you're getting sick every week, it might be good to get a new toothbrush.

Nate:

That's very practical. I mean, the bright bright of oral health is important. Well, it's like you're sick and you use the same toothbrush.

Mitchell:

You can get sick over and over.

Jon:

It's good.

Nate:

That's true.

Mitchell:

Yeah. Get a new toothbrush.

Jon:

You know, I don't know. I've heard that's helpful. Yeah. Well, along those lines, I've heard guys say they've had young people around them coming to them and being like, "Oh man, I'm dealing with this and it's spiritual warfare."

And then they just sort of ask, "How much sleep have you gotten this week? How many meals did you eat in the last couple of days? When was the last time you exercised?" So we're physical, mental, and spiritual beings all at the same time, all the time.

So all those things can come into play.

I have a curious question for you all that I think is related. Do you think a Christian can be possessed by a demon?

Mitchell:

No. No, I don't think so.

Jon:

Why not?

Mitchell:

Because I think in order for Satan to do anything he has to ask for God's permission. I think God sealing his elect with the Holy Spirit forbids that.

Nate:

Yeah, there's only room for one spirit to live in you, and if the Holy Spirit's in there, no vacancy for demons.

Jon:

Nice, I like that. The Westminster says he's infinite, eternal. That's pretty big. He takes up all the space.

Nate:

What do you think?

Jon:

Yeah, that's what I think too.

Mitchell:

I think Christians can come under demonic oppression, where they're being oppressed by demons but not possessed.

Jon:

Right. If the Holy Spirit's in you, he's in you. No vacancy – I like that. That's a good way to say it.

Alright, I've got a couple more that either I've thought of or just from talking to a few people, other questions that came in on this topic. We can go for days, but we'll just take a couple of these.

Here's one: If Satan knows God is going to win in the end, why does he even bother to fight?

Nate:

I've thought about that question a lot, and I think in one sense it seems like if you know you're going to lose, why would you even do anything towards it? And whoever asked that question, which it sounds like it was maybe you, John. But when I asked that question of myself, I asked, "Hey, if sin leads to bad consequences, why do I ever sin?" You know, if I know talking to my wife this way will lead to a fight, why do I even do it in the first place?

I think that's giving a lot of credit to the logic of our minds when evil doesn't often operate in logical ways.

Jon:

That's a very good point. I also think Satan is just fundamentally opposed to God. It's like having a big brother who you know you're going to get walloped if you fight him, but sometimes you're so angry you don't care. I think maybe that's the mindset of Satan: he just hates what God is doing and has to fight against him.

Nate:

And he's evil and perverse enough that even if he knows how it will end, there's a part of him that will enjoy the process even if he knows how it ends. I think I go back to Taco Bell sometimes even though I know this isn't gonna be great for me later in life, but the experience is great for the moment. For a little while it seems worth it, and it never is.

Jon:

I'm told often by my wife that this is pretty much how I play board games, the way she imagines Satan plays the game of life.

Nate:

Your wife says, "You know you're going to lose? Why do you even play?"

Jon:

Stephanie with some top-tier trash talk.

No, it's just that I have a kind of reputation: if I start to lose, I just want to cause as much damage to everybody else as I possibly can. Scorched earth. You're going down with me.

We like to play Settlers of Catan. It's kind of a long game. And so if I, in the early stage of the game, start realizing there's like no way I can win, then I'm just out to hurt everybody.

Mitchell:

And sometimes it's not just everybody, but one specific person.

Jon:

If we've got time for one more, how should Christians, or should Christians, try to interact with angels? I think "should" is such a hard word right there at the beginning of that question. But I personally think my – what I see in the biblical examples – if angels want to talk to you, they'll start things off.

Nate:

They'll start off with a little "do not fear" and then they'll give you a message. But it seems like those unique situations in church history and biblical history are not the norm, but are exceptions to the norm. And yeah, every time I see the angel initiating, unless I'm not thinking of something. Can you think of a time where?

Jon:

No, you're right. Someone else initiated the scenario. I was thinking about a lot. Daniel 10, right? Is it Daniel 10 when Daniel's praying? So he's – he doesn't really – he's not praying to an angel or anything, but he's praying to God. And then the Lord sends him an answer through an angel. And we've got that crazy scene where the angel is trying to get to Daniel, but he gets stopped by a demon and another angel has to come and help him in the fight, and then he can go to Daniel and sort of give that quick story before he gives Daniel the answer.

It's a wild thing to realize all that's going on in another realm that we can't see. So that was the only other example that I was thinking about, but Daniel isn't asking an angel to come to him. He's praying to God, and God decides to use an angel to bring the answer to him.

Mitchell:

I think that's exactly it. We shouldn't try to seek out angels. They'll find us.

Jon:

Right. It's a realm in which we know is there, and stuff is happening, and God is at work, and yet we don't have an instruction about that we're supposed to engage with it in any specific sort of way.

Mitchell:

Yeah.

Jon:

I think there's a lot that happens behind the scenes. I think one day we'll be able to look back and see God sending messengers or God sending his angels to bless or be over something that we will never have seen.

And there's been some books. I don't know if you guys have read – I'm trying to think of some of the names of these books – but I've read a couple of older books of guys trying to fictionally...

Or "This Present Darkness" by Frank. That's what I was thinking of, yeah.

Nate:

Thank you. I read that when I was young, and this question made me think of that too, because again, this is a little bit about over-dramatizing. It's a work of fiction, but I remember thinking, "Oh, I wonder if there are angels right now fighting around."

Yeah, and who knows? It's a spiritual realm, so we're not gonna see it right now with our eyes and experience it with our senses. But I do think that – I know for a lot of people, there's comfort in knowing if Satan has his demons, God has his armies too, and they outnumber and outpower anything – all the armies of evil – so we can rest assured to know that our God wins.

Jon:

Yeah, I think the comfort is God's given us what we need to know in his word, and everything else that he doesn't reveal to us, we're not supposed to know.

Mitchell:

That's okay.

Jon:

Jesus is on the throne. Well, thanks for the conversation, guys. Great stuff. Thanks, everybody, for the questions. Great questions. You can always submit more questions to peacechurch.cc/questions.

Jon:

Have an awesome week!

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