Reformed Roots: The Depths of Depravity and the Power of Grace

Jon

Hey everyone, welcome to That's a Good Question, a podcast of Peace Church and a part of Resound Media. You can find more great content for the Christian life and church leaders at Resoundmedia.cc. That's Good Question is a place where we answer questions about the Christian faith in plain language. I'm Jon, I serve as a pastor as well as the weekly host of the show.

You can always submit questions at peacechurch.cc/questions. And today I'm here with Pastor Logan.

Logan

Howdy.

Jon

Pastor Logan is our discipleship pastor here at Peace Church. So just to give some context, we are going back to a topic that we've talked about a few different times. Back in November we did an episode on this topic, and then last week we did an episode on this topic, and we're wrapping it up today by approaching the topic from a little bit different angle, kind of a systematic angle. The topic is Calvinism, which seems like a big, for some, maybe frightening term, but we're gonna try to break it down, make it plain and simple and get into especially, what does the Bible actually say about some of these concepts?

Logan

Amen. Yeah. It's gonna be fun. I actually think that there's a lot to this conversation that are some philosophical, some theological, and biblical, and all of them are so sweet and so fun to engage with, but I do love that we're focusing in on the biblical aspect of this topic more than anything else.

Jon

Yeah. And how would you, to put you on the spot, Pastor Logan, how would you summarize, what is Calvinism in a few sentences?

Logan

Oh boy, I was thinking about this too. And instead of going for like a complex answer, the answer I've kind of gone with is just God at work graciously saving sinners. Ooh, that's really good. That's the emphasis, I think, of Calvinism, of Reformed theology, of TULIP, anything you could say, doctrines of grace, is that God is graciously at work.

And that's what we're focused on, that's what we're talking about.

Jon

That's a really good one-sentence summary. I asked just because I was curious, and we've tried to do that in the last couple episodes, and summarize it, and I just wanted to hear what you would say, that's a really good one.

Logan

I think that's my favorite, there's a lot of buzzwords for this conversation topic, and I think doctrines of grace is my favorite. Yeah, yeah. Man, these are the doctrines of pure, total grace of God.

Jon

The theology of how God graciously saves people. Yeah. Uh-huh. I like that Sweet. Well, hey, we're gonna talk through kind of the two big so if you're not familiar Calvinism is sometimes broken into five points summarized with the acronym tulip t-u-l-i-p and We're gonna talk about two of those one because it's the foundation and the second one because I think it's the natural outworking And so that's how we'll get into it today. So, producer Mitchell, you wanna guide us through the conversation?

Mitchell

Yep, we'll be talking about two topics, total depravity and irresistible grace. But let's jump into that first one first. What does total depravity mean and what does it not mean?

Logan

Yeah, I love the way that we're clarifying what it doesn't mean, because just Calvinism in general, I think it's important to talk about what it doesn't mean. But depravity specifically, we're not talking about being sick with sin, but we're talking about being dead in sin. Yeah. Inability to choose God, not because we're not choosing, but because we do choose and we do choose sin. That is the default nature of humanity, is that we are choosing and we're choosing sin.

Jon

I like that, that's really good. One of the things I was gonna say that it doesn't mean, and this is one of the objections that I commonly hear from people, is people hear total depravity and they think, well, I'm not as bad as I could be. They hear totally depraved and they think that means you must be the absolute worst person you could possibly be.

Jon

Right. That's not really what it means.

Logan

I've heard people rephrase it in helpful ways, and it's not that total depravity is insufficient, but it's just another way of saying it that helps clarify that is entire corruption. Like your entire person is touched by a sin. Yeah, I like the way you put it, though, too.

Jon

Yeah, so, in short, I could be worse. John Delger could be worse. I am totally depraved in the way that we're about to explain it, but I could be worse.

Logan

And unsanctified or unjustified people do show, can do good things or can do things that, that's what we call common grace, but that's a.

Jon

Right, right, right, totally. So, yeah, you used a great word, the ability. Here's kind of the way that I've summarized it in the past, I got it written down here. Total inability is another way to phrase it. I love that, that's good. Yeah, I mean, tulip is just an acronym somebody came up with to define each of these five points. They're not, you know, so we can deviate a little bit.

Jon

So total inability, meaning that the sinner is so spiritually bankrupt that he or she can do nothing pertaining to his own salvation.

Logan

And I think I was speaking specifically of total depravity, like we can't and we won't. We couldn't, we wouldn't. And can I say a verse?

Jon

Yeah, go for it.

Logan

Okay, I'm just gonna jump in. Romans 8, 7, for in the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law. Indeed, it cannot.

Jon

Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of where we're at.

Logan

Yeah.

Jon

And that's where we're headed, right? We wanna talk through some texts?

Mitchell

I was just about to ask, is this a biblical idea? Is this something that we're making up? Or is this something we're imposing on Scripture? Or where do we find this? But I think that's a great, that's a great, uh, yeah, that's a great one to start with.

Jon

Yeah. And yeah, and our point is that this is not something man made up. This is us trying to look at the text of Scripture and summarize it in a few different ideas. So I'll chime in a couple of verses. One is Romans 3 23, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. So Scripture is clear that all human beings have sinned. It's not just some, it's all of us are sinners. 1 Kings 8 46 says, there is no man who does not sin. So just stating it another way. 1 John 1 8 says, if we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Logan

I love that one.

Jon

Yeah, boom, roasted. Don't lie, you are a sinner. That's kind of the punchline of it.

LoganIn a sense, too, scripture is just very clear. All are sinners. If you're saying you're not, you're calling God a liar.

Jon

Yeah, yeah. Another interesting one I jotted down, Romans 14, 23, says, whatever is not from faith is sin. I think that's an interesting one because it points us towards, sometimes when we think of sin, we just think of actions that we commit, but scripture's clear that it goes much deeper than that.

JonIt goes into our thoughts and our hearts and our intentions. It's kind of like in Matthew 5, when Jesus says, you have heard it said or seen it written, do not commit adultery, but I tell you the truth, whoever lusts after a woman with his eyes has committed adultery in his heart.

Jon

So the Bible is upping the ante constantly, that it's not just outward actions that we do, but thoughts and positions of our heart that bring us into sin.

Mitchell

Well, I think even going off of the Sermon on the Mount, I've had people say, you're talking about sinning kind of constantly, or like this sin nature, and they're like, well, I'm not sinful all the time. Bring it back to when Jesus says, love the Lord your God with all your heart, your soul, and your mind, your strength.

Mitchell

I used to be a youth pastor and would talk with youth students about that and say, okay, let's try to love God with all, everything that we have right now, just for 10 seconds, just for 30 seconds. And there'd always be like two kids who would raise their hand and be like, no, I actually did it.

And I'm like, well, I didn't see you lift anything. Like, we are physically possible, it's not physically possible for us to love God with all of our heart, soul, mind, strength, all the time. And therefore, we are constantly in a rebellion against God.

Logan

And I actually have a verse to read from Sermon on the Mount, which is what we were referencing. But I just want to say, like, the hard part when we're saying, hey, let's get after the biblical background and foundation for Calvinism and for these five points, is picking, like, the amount of options that we have to pick from. Because you just listed off so many verses, and I went through and was like, what are my top verses? And I didn't even pick any of those. I picked 12 other ones. But one of the passages that I did pick to kind of get after this depravity idea, and our entire corruption, or all of us, all of us is touched by sin in some way, all of our person. Matthew 7, 16 through 18, you will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbrushes or figs from thistles? So every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. We are talking about not just your outward actions, but the state of your nature. And the point being, we have a corrupted nature about us. It's not something that you have to wait until someone is 12 or eight years old and then see, all right, now, do you mostly do good things or mostly do bad things? It's just, no, we are corrupted in our nature. Trying to say, this is both our actions and inactions, which is just, the more you think about that, the more you're like, oh wow, I really do fall short of this standard.

Jon

Yeah, so you're saying sins of commission and omission. So even when you're not actively committing a do not from the Bible, you might be failing to commit a command that says you should go do something. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Mitchell

So can we jump on to our next question in this, talking about free will in association with total depravity. What is that all about?

Logan

I think I briefly touched on it earlier by saying we have will, we have agency, and we choose sin. We sin because we're sinners. Jon We'll be right back after this break.

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Jon

That's a really important point to talk about. I actually hadn't thought of that. We should talk through that. So you just said we sin because we are sinners, whereas I think the majority of the world would say it the opposite way, that we are sinners because we sin. Right, yeah. You want to explain that a little bit?

Logan

Yeah, well, I guess the one thing that's on my mind, and I might not fully explain it so we can come back to it, but just as we engage in the conversation, some people might be thinking, wow, these Christians really have a bleak view on the world. It's like, man, I'm a Christian, but these guys on this podcast are really making me think.

Jon

This episode has been kind of a bummer so far.

Logan

Yeah, but I think, man, if we don't get sin right, then we don't get the gospel right, and we don't understand the depth of God's salvation. So when we talk about the depth and the dire nature of our souls, that's just to say right back at it, and we are saved from all of it. And that's why we say grace of God. We don't merit any of the things that he did for us. What was your specific question?

JonWell, so you're saying in a minute we're gonna round the corner, we're gonna talk about some good news. Yes, yeah, yeah. We've been just talking about bad news. Yeah, can you explain the, kind of the difference of perspective that we're saying that you are a sinner, hang on, I gotta make sure I say this the right way.

Jon

It's not that you are a sinner because you sin, you sin because you are a sinner.

Logan

The one verse I think of is Romans 5.12. Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned. So there is like a philosophical curveball here that you're saying. It's like is it we sin because we're sinners or we're sinners because we sin. And I just think the Bible's pretty clear that we called original sin, we are by nature sinful.

Jon

Right, Adam sinned and we are all Adam's children.

Logan

We're not blank slates, everyone's sitting, God's not sitting around waiting to see like, all right, is this one, oh, another one failed. It's like, no, our entire nature is corrupted.

Jon

Yeah, let me tell you, I wasn't planning on saying this, but let me read part of the notes that I've got written down here. I've said in the past, I think one of the best, I think probably the best lecture series on Calvinism is John Piper's five-part series just called Tulip. I think it's great, it's getting really old now, honestly, but it's great.

Jon

And I'm gonna just list, and this is, I can't remember, this is in some of my old teaching notes from the last time I taught on this, so I might have adapted his points a little bit. So, John Piper, forgive me, but these are basically coming from John Piper. Yeah, there you go, perfect. So, these are basically his five points on what is total depravity. He says depravity means at least five things.

Number one, that depravity affects every human, so every human is affected by sin. It means that our rebellion or hardness against God is total, that is, apart from God's grace, there's no delight in the holiness of God, and there's no glad submission to the sovereign authority of God. So these are all ways that it's total. Number three, in his total rebellion, everything man does is sin. We've kind of gotten to that point, you know, it's actions, heart, thoughts.

Number four, man's inability to submit to God and do good is total. So we are unable to do things that would be meritorious before God. And finally, number five, our rebellion is totally deserving of eternal punishment. Yeah. So, scripture is clear on all those accounts. So, as it reflects free will, like you were asking, Mitch, one of the things I've done when I've taught on this concept before is go back to Ephesians, chapter 2, that says, and you were dead in your trespasses and sins.

Jon

So, it's talking about our state before Christ. We were dead in our trespasses and sins, and I remember teaching this a couple of different times in youth group settings. I'd have a kid come up on the stage with me, and I'd whisper to him, hey, you're going to play dead, because that's the point of the passage here. I'd say, all right, so play dead. They'd fake their death, and they'd lay down on the stage and face down on the carpet. I remember one time, actually, a kid got up afterwards, and he had the carpet marks all over the side of his cheek because I made him stay there for so long.

And then I would say to him, I'd say, hey, just get up, just come alive, and here's my hand, and all you gotta do is you gotta take it. If you just take my hand, you'll be alive. That's all you gotta do. And what did the kid do? The kid just laid there. Probably because somebody who's dead can't do anything. So if you say to them, all you have to do is this one thing, they can't even do that. And I think that's kind of the point of total depravity, is to say, we are so dead in sin, we can't contribute to our own salvation. I can't just decide I'm going to get up and do something to contribute to it. What we're going to get to in just a moment is that God has to supernaturally intervene for anything good to come of my situation. So then thinking about free will, people ask, do humans have free will? Well, I'd say if you have free will, then go and sin no more.

Logan

Hmm.

Jon

You know, if you're free, if your will is totally free, then you should be able to decide not to sin, to stop sinning. Yeah.

Logan

And I would argue that you can't do that. We're not free from the, the, how do I want to put it? Like the, the desires we have, we can't just pick them. Like we have these desires and they are sinful. Yeah. And you choose what you want. And the Bible's saying, and you want sin.

Like, sin is fun, and we love it, and then we hate God. That's just the nature of humanity. Yeah.

Jon

I mean, one of the dominant images in the Bible about sin is that we are slaves.

Mitchell

It was Augustine who said something like, we had the ability in the garden not to sin and lost that when Adam fell. So, there was a time where we could, free will was the ability not to sin, but because of the fall, it's gone.

LoganSin is choosing something that's antithetical to God's design and sometimes when we use this word sin, we think everyone knows we're talking about, and the gist of it is we're just saying sin is choosing your own way rather than God's way. Because God has a will and a desire for us, and we have a will and a desire. And the way it's ought to be is that those two things are in alignment. But the reality of the world, and that's just what we're saying, the reality of the world is we are not in alignment with our Creator God, and we're living in rebellion to Him because we choose things our own way.

Mitchell

Absolutely. Well, let's turn the corner and start talking about grace. So this next point is called irresistible grace. So I'd love to ask, what does that mean? What does irresistible grace mean?

Logan

Yeah, I think it actually piggybacks off well of what I just said, because when people hear the word irresistible grace, we think, oh, so humanity is in rebellion to God, and so what God does is he makes it, he takes humans and he forces them into, forces a square into a circle or something and makes it, just makes humans do what he wants. And that's not at all what it's referring to. Like we said, we, and I actually think that's a misunderstanding of Calvinism, when we talk about what Calvinism isn't. Calvinism isn't that it's God 100% just taking us like robots and moving us along, but it is we have we have a will, we have desire, God has a will and a desire and we're not in alignment, that's why we're in sin. And irresistible grace is saying His grace comes and He redeems our hearts, He regenerates our hearts so that we do want Him. He chooses us, regenerates our hearts, does a work of grace and now we want him, and we choose him.

Jon

That's the, yeah. Yeah, without which we'd be in deep trouble. Yeah, I've always really liked the name Irresistible Grace, because irresistible is a really positive thing.

Logan

Yeah, it's not removing your agency, it's actually giving it to you and saying, here's the grace that God has done.

Jon So, what I've written down is that total depravity shows us that if grace were resistible, then we would resist it. If we could resist grace, then we definitely would. That's the point of total depravity. But irresistible grace, that doctrine shows us that we can only resist until God decides to overcome our resistance.

Jon

I think that's the case of the Bible. We'll look at some passages in a minute, but it's true that people do resist God. People resist God's grace.

Logan

That's total depravity. We are all activists.

Jon

Yeah, yeah. We are all activists. I've sometimes visualized it like arm wrestling. We're resisting God until the moment when God just decides it's over. It's over. And he just goes boom. You know, it's like when I arm wrestle my sons, they're four and three years old, I obviously could win at any moment, but I choose to let them, let it be a struggle for a little bit just because, and then at a certain point, I just throw down and it's done.

Mitchell

I've got a Steven Lawson quote if you want it, or am I talking too much? Yeah, go for it. Steven Lawson says that irresistible grace is when God chooses to raise one of his elect to life, he can do so without asking permission of the dead creature. Which I think is just such that cool idea of that arm wrestling. When God decides it's gonna happen, he doesn't need to ask permission. It just happens.

Logan

There's so many different places to go, because I do think talking about irresistible grace does get at one of the, all five points really do, but I think irresistible grace especially gets at one of the heartbeats of what we mean when we say Calvinism or doctrines of grace, because it is grace that God did this work and didn't ask the dead person's permission to save them and redeem their heart, regenerate their heart.

Jon

Because the dead person would always say no.

Logan

I know, there's so many.

Jon

Or they wouldn't say anything because they're dead.

Logan

There's so many different places I could go, and I just think it's important to say that this isn't, it's not like there's this opinion and then one other opinion, and you got like Arminianism, and you gotta choose between the two. It's like there's actually a lot of opinions on this and some are heretical, like open theism is wrong.

Yeah. Pelagianism is wrong. I'd say Arminianism is incomplete and Calvinism I think is biblical. You know, there's so many different ways to go about this and the church has argued about this for 2000 years. You know. Sure. Yeah, I do think that at the heartbeat of it all it is God is working a grace and It's all him doing it and we receive it

Jon

That's good news.

Mitchell

Yeah, so what texts Talk about this again. You know, I think we gotta go back at peace. We love the Bible So let's yeah, I make sure this is

Logan

I think the you got to go here Genesis 50 20 Joseph sold into slavery, awful things happen because of the evil intent of his brothers. His brothers did that. His brothers chose that. And then at the end of the story, God raises him up in power in Egypt, and he actually winds up being the one who saves his family and many other families in the nation, right? And he says this in Genesis 50, 20, "'As for you, you meant evil against me, "'but God meant it for good to bring about "'that many people should be kept alive as they are today. "'As for you, you meant evil against me, "'but God meant it for good. "'Not God used it for good, God reworked it for good, "'but God meant it for good. "'You meant it for evil, God meant it for good because at every moment in reality, we are agents living and moving and breathing and desiring and willing and meaning things. And an infinite creator God is also actively moving through all the things that are happening. So it's not God is the only one and we're robots. It's not, you know, this open theism where he is dependent on all of our actions. But it's – and I'm not saying I fully understand it, but this is what the Bible says very clearly. God is working while we are also working in the same things.

We mean things for evil and he means them for good. And the gospel is a picture of that. People killed Jesus and God laid his life down on the cross. So the worst thing that ever happened in human history was both intended by the people who crucified Jesus and intended by Jesus at the same time. Yeah, totally.

Jon

One I had was Ephesians 2, just a classic passage always on what is the gospel. Ephesians 2, verses 8 and 9 says, For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, not a result of works so that no one may boast. So if you break down that passage actually and look in detail at what it's saying, it says, so by grace you've been saved through faith and then it's talking about faith. This faith is not of yourselves, it is a gift of God. So actually faith is the subject of the gift. Faith is the gift.

Yes, yeah. So it's making the point that faith isn't a work that you do, it's not something that you actually conjured up, it's actually a gift from God. Now, that might seem at first like kind of a crazy idea and something people might not be excited about, but I think if you're a Christian and you look back on the moment when you got saved, I've told this story before that when I first became saved, I look at that moment and I would say, I decided to become a Christian at that moment, and that would be true. And you did. I did. I did do that. But I would look back years later after studying the Bible more and learning more, and I'd say, you know what, actually, as I look at that moment, it's true, I decided to become a Christian at that moment.

But what was happening first was God was stirring in my heart. The Holy Spirit was doing something in my heart. Another way to say that would be that He was actually stirring up or creating faith in my heart. Yeah. I think that's kind of what Ephesians 2 is painting the picture of, that he was giving me that gift, but that God was moving supernaturally first. You know, I was dead, and the Holy Spirit was working in a dead man, and then I was able to respond.

Logan

Yeah, I'm gonna read two verses just in response. John 6, 44, no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And then Romans 8, 28 through 30, just one of my favorite, Romans 8, 28, one of my favorite verses, and very important to this conversation, and the verses right after it.

And we know that for those who love God, all things work together for good for those who are called according to his purpose. And then right after it says, for those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

And those whom he predestined, he also called, and those whom he called, he also justified, and those whom he justified, he also glorified. Yeah. He calls, he justifies, he chooses all the work of God, not on our merit, but purely his grace.

Yeah. Wait a minute.

Jon

So the word predestination is in the Bible? I love that. So you got to do something with that.

Logan

I love being asked, do you believe in predestination? Because my response can always be, yes, every Christian does. It's a biblical word.

Jon

Yeah. You got to decide how to interpret it, but it's a word that's in the Bible. You can't just say, I don't believe in it. Yeah. Yeah. A couple more, I'll add real quick before we go on. Acts 11, 18 says, when they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God saying, well then God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.

Oh, I love that. So just a perspective of the disciples in the early church looking at, they're saying, man, it's cool. The gospel is going beyond the Jews, it's going to the Gentiles. And how do they describe it? God is granting to the Gentiles. He's granting them repentance. God stirred in their hearts, enabling repentance.

One more, Acts 16, 14. A woman named Lydia from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening, and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

Logan

That's beautiful. I don't know if I ever caught that, or even have thought about that, but that's so to the point and beautiful.

Jon

Yeah, it's just a great description of what happens. The Bible's being preached, God's word goes out, and the Holy Spirit at the same time is working in somebody's heart. And as it says, the Lord opened her heart to respond to the word.

Logan

I think that when we get to the—when we talk about the theological order of salvation and the philosophical, like free will or all these things. It can rub some people the wrong way and they can think, man, it feels like it interferes with my sense of justice. But if then you take that and do something with it and like belittle God's sovereignty, then obviously you are belittling God's sovereignty and God's sense of justice.

Logan

And so I think that it's just wise and it takes a little bit of humility, but to say, I don't know, but I am gonna lean on whatever theology makes God the biggest, because we're talking about a big God theology. Right. But aside from all that, especially if you're listening and you feel that, you feel like,

I just feel like what they're saying is like contradicting how I view God and my, just that passage, that rings true to my story. Can you read it one more time?

Jon

Oh man, I gotta scroll back to it.

Logan

I just feel like if you're listening and you're thinking, yeah, I just don't fully, I can't articulate the philosophical or theological problems I have, intellectual, emotional, just like, but listen to this verse, because I think it just, it rings true for my story. Yeah.

Jon

Acts 16, 14, a woman named Lydia was listening, and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

Logan

That's what we're talking about, is the Lord opening our hearts and regenerating our hearts is what we would call it.

Jon

And if he didn't, we wouldn't be able to respond.

Logan

That's what we're saying. That is what we're saying.

Jon

Yeah, and to what you're saying, to some, I think it feels, yeah, it just feels wrong in your, there's something in you that's like, this can't be right. I don't like this, I like choice. And some of that is, at least for us sitting here, we're Americans, some of that is just, this seems un-American, because we're all about that freedom means choice and I do what I want and that kind of thing.

That's not really a biblical definition of freedom. A biblical definition of freedom would be more like the ability to choose to do what is absolutely best, which means choosing to do things God's way, which means being freed from slavery to sin, and that is what God's giving you. So what's actually happening in irresistible grace is God is freeing you from slavery to sin so that you can receive grace and live what is truly free, the way of God.

Logan

Yeah. We, the problem, we're not, Calvinism, if you think Calvinism is saying I don't have a choice in the matter, then you're not listening or thinking of Calvinism. You're thinking of what we would call hyper-Calvinism, which is a very unfortunate name for it.

Jon

Yeah, it doesn't mean super-Calvinist.

Logan

Yeah, exactly.

Jon

It means going beyond Calvinism into something unbiblical.

Logan

That's a great way of saying it. Calvinism is holding these two mysteries, and I'd say Arminianism is attempting to do it too, but just in an adequate way, I think I'd say, holding these two mysteries of how can finite beings have desires and will, and an infinite being also have desires and will and share the same universe? And the Bible just holds both of those out and says these are both true, that you choose and desire and so does God at the same time.

And we're not saying you don't choose. We're saying, no, you do choose. You choose sin.

Jon

Right.

Logan

Yeah. So if you're hearing this and you're thinking, I've always thought Calvinism says we don't have a choice. We're saying, no, you do. You're totally depraved and don't choose God. And he regenerates your heart, so you do choose him.

Jon

And when you do make the good choice.

Logan

Yes, freedom, like we were saying.

Jon

Yeah, when you do make the good choice into freedom, it's because the Holy Spirit's working in your heart.

Praise God. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, so it's about how do those two things work together? We've we've come back time and again to that mystery God sovereignty human responsibility those things are both true taught in the Bible We don't know exactly how they work together, but they're both true. Yes

Logan

First John 4 19 is another verse you could go to we love because he first loved us

Jon

Romans 9 is another one of those passages we could spend hours and hours talking about but read that passage It's probably gonna raise a lot of questions for you But I think about these two doctrines is the statement that when we make our sin small, we make the cross small.

Mitchell

And so the idea of elevating or understanding total depravity is not a bad thing. and it was so bad what we did that it could only have been God himself dying.

Logan

Yeah, so bad of what we've done and so bad of our state, the reality we find ourselves in is so dire.

Mitchell

Yeah, so let's not minimize our sin. Let's see it for what it is. Right, yeah. And then worship in response to what the cross was. Amen.

Jon

Right, right. These doctrines should help, should have, bring about an even greater appreciation of the gospel and even more worship of God.

Jon

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Pastor Logan. Oh, joy. Thanks, Mitch. Thanks, everybody, for listening.

Logan

Hope it's been helpful to you. Hope it's been helpful to you.

Jon

You can find That's A Good Question at resoundmedia.cc or wherever you listen to podcasts.