Mom Guilt, Power Struggles, and the Bible's Solution

Hey, welcome to That's a Good Question, the podcast where we answer questions about the Christian faith in plain language. We are a podcast of Resound Media, a place you can trust to find great resources for the Christian life and church leadership.

You can also submit questions that we answer here on the show to resoundmedia.cc. If you find this resource helpful, please rate and review the podcast so more people can encounter the life-changing truth of God's word. Also, if you know somebody who could benefit from today's topic or from the questions that we're answering, do us a favor, share the episode with them. My name is Jon. I serve as a pastor and love to be part of this show here with Mitch. Yeah. And today we are here with special guests,

the host of the Mom Guilt podcast, Stephanie and Elizabeth. Welcome, ladies.

Hi, thanks for having us. Yeah, we're happy to be here.

And they're complete strangers to us. We have no idea who you are either. Complete strangers, yep.

No.

For those of you who don't know, these are our wives. I'm married to Elizabeth and you're married to Stephanie. We get to be a part of this journey with them and their podcast together and we thought it'd be great to have them on.

So here we are doing a podcast with our wives who have their own podcast, Dreams Coming True.

Yeah, it should be a lot of fun.

Yeah.

It's gonna be cool.

Yeah. So we're gonna talk about a range of topics, but we're gonna start with talking about some topics related to what you guys talk about. You guys wanna just share, what do you guys talk about on the Mom Guilt Podcast?

Yeah, so we talk about mom guilt. So one of the things that we found is a lot of moms struggle with mom guilt, feeling like you're never doing the right thing or you're a good mom and you're constantly having this inner dialogue in your head throughout the day. And Elizabeth and I would call each other constantly. All the time. Or text and say, hey, I'm struggling with this. Can you help? And so we found, you know, we're not

the only ones that struggle with this. So let's do a ministry. We prayed about it and felt that God

was calling us to do it. And we realized a lot of women don't have someone to talk about it with. So you feel very alone. And so our prayer is that women would find a godly woman, mom, that can come alongside them and preach the gospel to them. But if they don't, we would love to be that.

We'll be there in their ear until you find it.

So seeing as how you have a podcast called Mom Guilt and we don't, I have an important question.

Do you think women experience more guilt than men?

Yes, I think it's different. Like I think it's probably guilt about different things. That's my gut.

Yeah, I think if you break guilt down, it's a working definition, but probably feeling like you've done something wrong or you're not measuring up. So if you're using that type of a definition for guilt, then I'd say it's probably going to hit equally across the board because men and women both sin, I would say, probably about the same amount. But for moms, the mom guilt specifically, I think we just feel it maybe in different ways than you guys do as men.

Yeah, like we feel guilty if we give our kids too much screen time or- Too much sugar, if you're late for the school drop-off line. Yeah, where guys might feel guilty if like they haven't mowed the lawn or something's falling apart on the house or maybe like they just feel like they're not being the best provider. So I think the guilt is there.

But yeah, for with mom guilt, it's a little bit different. Not that dad guilt doesn't exist, but yeah.

We're just not as willing to admit it.

Probably.

Well, I wonder if that's the thing is women just talk about it more. And so I think you think women feel the guilt more, but we just express it. And sometimes men don't talk about their feelings and keep that a little bit more hidden.

Yeah, we're verbal processors.

I mean, if I saw a podcast called Dad Guilt, I probably wouldn't listen because I wouldn't want to feel more guilty

Is that not just a man thing to say I don't want to talk about it Well, you guys are more sanctified than us you're willing to talk about your guilt I like that that's good

So we have a number of listener questions here that I think would be great for us to get to talk about So let's start with this one. So the question is basically this how do you do it all? How do you care for kids, keep the house, work, church, marriage, discipleship in the home? And somebody else also asked a related question, where is the balance between

being selfish and taking care of yourself? Well, if you ever figure that out, let me know,

because I would also like to do it all. I know, my first thought is you can't. You can't do it all. Yeah. So can you give the list again?

What were some of the specifics? I don't want to just kind of breeze over it. I know it's a serious question caring for the kids

keeping the house Work if you're somebody works outside of the home church marriage Discipleship in the home. That's some of the things that they listed. Okay discipline at home

Really good things and I think I mean it's not bad to want to do all of those things. I know I can definitely relate to feeling really guilty or feeling bad, like my life is falling apart, everything is not going the way I wanted it to. I think a lot of times I would never say I have it all together, but I look at another woman and say she's got it

all together. I want to be like her. Yeah. And the reality is we're not God. We can't do everything and be everything and, you know, be everything for everyone at all times, and we're going to fail. There are going to be times where we do well, and there's going to be times where, honestly, we drop the ball. And really, the whole point of our podcast is that our identity is not in what we do. So I would tell this listener, you can't do it all.

God will help you. You're not alone. Ask for help. And when you can't do it all, remember that your identity is in Christ. That would be, you know, and just be gentle to yourself because as moms you want to. You want to do it all and you can't.

We weren't designed to do it all.

Yeah.

I think one of the conversations we've had before is that everybody cheats somewhere. It might look like you do it all. I know, I think, Mitch, I think you and I have had that conversation of looking at, maybe looking up to guys that do a lot of writing and teaching. They're still pastors and they've got a bunch of kids and kind of say, well, he must cheat somewhere.

Hopefully not on his spouse.

Hopefully not.

That'd be the worst one to choose.

Is it that he never sleeps? Is it that he actually puts in very little time as a pastor, spends the rest of his time speaking and writing elsewhere? Where is it? There's only 24 hours in a day for all of us. So somewhere, something is getting cheated,

even if it looks perfect.

Maybe it's just a really fast type of...

Maybe. Well, I will say that. I will say that there are guys that I look up to that I just want to admit that they have more horsepower than I do. They're smarter, they can do it faster.

That's just how it is. And so that's sometimes true. But I'd say more often than not, it's probably that they're putting in less somewhere so they can put in more somewhere else.

Yeah. What was the last part of that question? It was about self-care, right? Yeah.

The balance.

The balance between selfishness and taking care of yourself.

Yeah. And I think you're right. Some people maybe don't take care of themselves, like even just basic things like sleep or eating or taking a lunch break or whatever it is. And that can lead to unhealth.

But then-

Yeah, that can lead to you end up,

you know, 10 years down the road,

just screaming down the sidewalk or something like that.

Yeah, having a mental breakdown, or you're so burnt out, you can't go on. But there is this other side, and we've talked about this on the podcast, where culture kind of puts self-care as like the primary thing.

And honestly, as a mom, it's almost like another thing that I'm failing at. It's like, oh man, I'm not doing all these things for myself. I don't have a hobby. I'm not getting time away from the kids. I don't, you know, and it's like, oh man, I'm failing at self-care.

And so I, I think self-care can look different. Like it can be reading, it can be listening to music. It doesn't have to be getting away from your family, getting away from your kids. I don't know. What would you add to that?

I think one of the things that can be really hard is outside to somebody else, they can look the same But one of them is genuine self-care and the other one is selfishness And I think for me trying to think through how do I discern which is which? You can ask yourself questions like how do I respond when I don't get? Whatever it is that you were trying to do what happens if I had a manicure appointment and it doesn't happen

Because to me that exposes in my heart, like, was this like selfishness or was this self-care? Because I think sometimes it can be self-care to go and spend a little bit of time to get a manicure and that's fine. But for me, so often that selfishness is revealed if what happens when this doesn't happen or maybe even just asking the question of what do I have to sacrifice in order to make it happen?

Yeah. Could be another really good question that you could ask yourself to determine between the two.

Yeah.

Cautioning our hearts against self-care, becoming an idol.

Because sacrifice is not all bad.

No.

Right? I feel like that's the missing piece, what people talk about. Again, I want to, you know, we should all, you know, you should strive for getting a good amount of sleep, eating right, you know, like doing healthy exercise, taking care of yourself, spending time in the Word and in prayer. I'd say that's an important part of self-care.

But also, I think often when people talk about self-care, they're missing out on that sometimes we have to sacrifice some things in order to do what God's called us to do. I think to me, parenthood is like one of the biggest, well, I feel like I shouldn't be saying this out loud, but it's a big sacrifice in a good way, but it's a big sacrifice. You know, you come home from work or whatever and it's like you want to just have a little bit of time or be able to relax, but no you gotta Buckle in and here we go. Yeah, I love these kids, and I've been called by God to take care of them and sometimes it hurts

sometimes physically Sometimes like you know last night

Each of the guy didn't tell you this, but each of the girls cats woke me up in the morning.

So.

Yeah, I say to couples who are going through premarital, like the hardest thing you can do is get married and have kids. Like if you want an easy life, don't do either of those things. But it's totally worth it.

You know, it's life-changing in a great way.

But it's art.

Yeah.

I think it's a great way that we can actually image God. And I mean, think about if Jesus would have had the self-care or selfishness mentality when he was approaching the cross, you know? Like, I think we can parent in a way that's sacrificial and we could actually, in a way, almost be like a Jesus figure to our kids. Not saying that we're like obviously going to save our children. We're not. You know, that's Jesus that's

doing that. But it's a way that we can kind of give them things to think about as they're looking at Jesus and they see all the sacrifices that Jesus made, you know, it would be fantastic if one of our kids came to you or I and say, hey, I really saw you being like Jesus when I was a kid because you did these things. Yeah.

Yeah.

I really like the point you made that maybe an indicator of selfishness versus self-care is how you react when you don't get it.

Yeah.

Be grateful or entitled. Yeah.

Yeah.

It's something that you, you know, you want to do, you want to have, it's good for you, Yeah, yeah.

It's something that you, you know, you want to do, you want to have, it's good for you, but maybe it's become an idol if your reaction is very, very poor when you have to sacrifice it for something else that God has called you to do. Well, and actually something you just said I think is really important, that it's good for you. Because I think sometimes we actually, like, in mom circles can talk about things that

are actually maybe not what's best for you. but if you have too much wine and you become drunk, that's not self-care, that's actually sin. The Bible says being drunk is sin. That's maybe even a very surface-level filter of, is this selfishness or is this self-care? Is this sinful?

Is this actually good for me? Yeah. Or the mom culture that you need wine to get through the day, just being a mom. Yeah, I think you're so right in that.

Yeah. Yeah. So, and to circle back to, so, we talked about how do you do it all? So, I think largely our answer was most people don't actually do it all. A lot of us cheat in some way, shape, or form. But whether you do or don't do it all, like you guys said, it comes down to your identity.

What are you finding your identity in? Yeah. Right? Is it what you do or is it that you are a child of God, saved by Jesus, by his blood, and that's where my identity is. It's not in getting it all done or appearing to get it all done.

Yeah, exactly.

So for us men on this side of the room, how can husbands, as we have wives that struggle with mom guilt, how can we help you all with that? How can we be supportive?

We should just record all of our conversations at home because you guys do it so well.

Yeah.

We'll start a whole nother podcast.

We get that?

That's recorded?

Yeah.

Okay. Good. No, I think honestly, I think you guys actually have done a great job because I know for you, John, like when I am feeling really guilty about things, the first thing that you do isn't to tell me to try harder. It's not you need to do this thing because so often I come and I'm really frustrated.

The last thing I actually want you to do in that moment, at least at the get go, is tell me how to fix it. I think one of the first things- It took me a long time to learn that.

I was about to say that's my go-to.

Is to try to understand why are you feeling this way? And then after you figure out why am I feeling this way, then I think there is the shift that I actually desire of, can you please, as an outsider, help me fix this, but first you have to sit and understand, let me tell you why I'm feeling this way or help me understand Why I'm feeling that way because often I think a lot of times you can't even articulate how you feel

Yeah, and it feels like something that's trapped in me And like I almost I tell my husband I tell him the job that it almost like haunts me So if I can just get it out there and I can tell my husband about it Even if there's it's not rational or any we know that we both know that, but just somebody who can listen, you can pray with me. It's also, I mean, there's accountability,

like should I feel guilty about this? Shouldn't I feel guilty? And often you'll be like, no, you shouldn't feel guilty. And sometimes you're like, yeah, you know, that was sinful. And so it's just not feeling alone. I think that mom guilt makes you feel so alone.

Yeah, and that's been really helpful for me. Something that you've done is you'll preface things when you say things like that. You'll say, hey, this might not be rational, but this is how I'm feeling. So I don't have to be worried of like, oh, she actually really thinks this way. You're saying, I'm feeling these feelings and I know they might not be true, but I need to talk about them with somebody.

And that's been really, I think a really helpful thing. And you're a good listener when?

Sometimes.

Yeah.

After the kids go to bed.

That preface is helpful. Honey, I don't need you to fix this, but I'd like to tell you about a problem that I have. Seriously, we kind of need that sometimes.

That helps.

I think his husband's asking that question, too. Are you looking for an answer or a solution to this, or do you want me to sit in this space with you? I think as a husband, it can be a really good thing.

I think it also really strengthens your marriage because when you have something that you're thinking about, I mean often when John you and I are having conversation about this, sometimes the issue isn't really the issue. Like something that's manifesting itself on the surface is actually a much bigger thing that because we've been married for so many years you know that about me, you're actually able to speak truth to me at a much deeper level

because you know where my struggles are with my identity or you know where my struggles are of where I'm struggling with sin in my life. And you as my husband is actually probably the most helpful person I can talk to about that because you know me better than really anybody else.

Can I ask this question in the negative? What are things that husbands do that aren't loving to their wives as they're dealing with mom guilt? Hypotheticals only please. Like, what are some ways that would be just clearly not helpful as you guys are processing mom guilt?

I think any time you minimize it, like if maybe you're a dad and you-

Hypothetically, right?

Yeah. Okay.

Hypothetically.

Yeah, not you. Every time you minimize it, no. Like maybe you're a dad and you don't wrestle with that same guilt, and it can sound silly. I mean, it really can. I think back

and I'm like, oh my goodness, I felt guilty because, you know, my kid, another kid sneezed on my kid and I couldn't control it. Like it's not always rational. And so not minimizing and just saying, wow, you're crazy. That's ridiculous. Like move on with your life. I think having sympathy that, um, yeah, that it's a real deep feeling that we have an experience regularly. And so yeah, so just having compassion and even if it is ridiculous or you can't understand it, just trying to be there with your wife.

I think sometimes to over-compartmentalize, I think in general, men's and women's brains work differently. And I think sometimes men can compartmentalize things where I personally struggle with that. I don't know if that's all women thing, but for me personally, I'll just say that for me. And so sometimes when you're like, well, just don't think about it.

If I'm told that when I'm struggling with something, I'm like, well, that's not helpful because I can't do that. Like I could be, you know, making spaghetti for dinner and I'm thinking about this thing that happened yesterday or three days ago, like I can't compartmentalize. And so trying to force me to do that

is something I can for sure grow in, but that sometimes can be really hard.

All right, another listener question. As a wife submitting to my Christian husband, how can I encourage him to make submitting to him a joy when he might be missing the mark?

Steph, I'm going to let you answer.

You guys never experienced that clearly.

Only bad answers here.

I have to tread very carefully. It's Christmas coming up and I want a present. So, so your is the question essentially, how do I joyfully submit if I feel like my husband

is not doing well? It says, how can I encourage him to make submitting to him a joy? So I think, I think she's, I think the writer is very kindly trying to say, how do I help

my husband be better when he's missing the mark, but still submit to him. So when he's not leading, how do you encourage him to lead and you not take on that leadership

role?

Yeah.

he's trying to lead.

Yeah. I think the first thing would be to pray. Somebody gave me the advice years ago that if I see something that I want to bring to you, John, pray about it for you for 30 days before I see anything. And that's not something that is ever in the Bible.

They just pick 30 days, it's about a month, and I'm not saying you always have to wait that long. But there are so many times when you probably don't even know because I never have to say anything because as I'm praying for you, the Holy Spirit actually works in your life and you either say something or it just gets resolved and it's like, Oh, that handled and worked itself out.

So I think praying for your spouse when you see something like that would be your first step.

Yeah. I'll share a story which has to do with all of us. So this is perfect. I don't even know how many years ago this was, like seven years ago. We were having dinner together and I have wrestled with submission.

I think not growing up a believer, it has always been very hard for me. And I remember saying something to John while all of us were together. I said, I think we were talking about this very openly. And I was like, I think I said something along the lines of,

but what if I don't trust my husband to make the right decision? And I just kept going back to that. And this had to do with something specific in our life with an investment, right? And you told me, you said, it's actually

it's not about trusting your husband. It's about trusting God. And that stuck with me. It did. And because your husband is human. I mean, he is not always going to make the right decision. He's not always going to do the right thing. He's not always going to go about submission in the right

way. But I trust God in his design. I trust God in who he's called me to marry. And so I think sometimes when I wrestle with that, I can tell my husband kindly, like maybe if my husband isn't being kind about submission, I don't know what this listener is exactly saying. I can say, hey, like, can you be more loving about that? This is hard. I can gently say, I'm unsure. I don't,

this makes me nervous. Like, I think you can verbalize it, but still respect and honor and submit to your husband. And remember that ultimately you're submitting to God. I need that reminder a lot, especially because I want to often take control.

Yeah.

I'd also say to this woman, it's okay to like go back and look at the game tape. Like I think it's okay if there is a pattern of habitual poor decision-making in a relationship to be able to say, hey, like, let's go back on this last decision that didn't turn out well. Let's talk about what happened here. So that way we can make better decisions in the future.

I think that's one way a wife can still submit and be a helper and also help shape things in the future to be, um, to be better. I think when wives can help their husbands make better decisions, that's not usurping their authority. That's, you know, being, being the helper to say, hey, I want to come alongside you and help see you make better

decisions. And a wife's husband looks at their wives as, you know, someone who's there to help them and has wisdom and good input, which can take time and practice. And you have to be humble,

too, as a husband to be able to receive that criticism. It's hard, but it's so important.

And you have to be humble as a wife if it goes wrong to not say I told you.

Yeah, those are.

Yeah, that you know, you have to. It's all about humility on both ends.

It's like we've handed you a loaded gun and you're just like.

So I want to hear what you guys would say, though, because as the wife, you don't want to come across nagging. I think for me, I know one of the biggest turnoffs to not get what I actually want is to nag again and again about something. So, can I, like, let me into your brain space, like, what is a way that I could bring something up to you that wouldn't be a turn-off that would actually lead to a better conversation and you not feeling threatened? If I'm bringing up something about a failed leadership or something like that.

Yeah, or the encouragement, right, that this question talks about. What kind of encouragement?

What do you need to hear? Or how can I help you?

That's a tough question.

Let me help you.

Yeah. I would say maybe do it topless.

Oh my gosh.

If you're going to fight, do it naked. It's harder to stay mad at each other. That's funny. Maybe after the kids are in bed.

Yeah.

I wonder if... I have two answers. First is if you're going to be the person to bring it, you know, starting with sweetie, I love you. I'm so thankful that you do try to lead our

home well.

This sounds like a compliment sandwich.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what? I've always been, I think the funny thing about compliment sandwiches is that we always teach that they're bad, but we all do them anyways. And I think, I think maybe we all actually want them. I don't know. Yeah

Okay, now you're gonna manipulate me to do something Well, I feel like yeah, yeah, I mean

Maybe that's an advantage though. You see it coming at least you know, what's about to happen and so you can mentally prepare for it Maybe Mitch has better ideas on how our wives can bring it to us But the other thing I was gonna say is actually for men we really love a challenge, but we love it from another man, as hard as that is probably for a wife to conceptually can, you know, how can that work? But I think, so this is maybe, this is not a way that you can, you know, sometimes you do have to directly bring the issue to your husband. But another component alongside

of that would be make sure your husband is plugged into a men's Bible study, a men's small group, places where iron sharpens iron, where he's going to get challenged by other men. So I think, yeah, again, you know, there are times when you're going to have to bring stuff to me directly, and I think that's always hard. It's just, those are, I can't think of times when those are fun conversations, right? That's just never fun.

That's always going to be a tough way to do it. It still has to be done sometimes, but if you can try to help your husband have good men around him that will challenge him. We actually like to be challenged by other men.

Yeah. But not your wife.

Unfortunately, I think that's probably true. I don't think in general men like to be challenged. But now again, I'm not saying women shouldn't challenge their husbands. That does need to happen sometimes. But I say we don't get pumped about that.

So is there some type of a practical thing that you could set before there's an issue or when there's not an issue that you want to talk about, could you somehow build into your marriage? There are certain times or every four months or set something aside where we're going to evaluate how we're doing in our marital roles, how we're engaging as parents. Because it seems like if you had something in place that that's already there, that is maybe less threatening than kind of out of the blue.

Because I know I say that only because you and I have a friend that in their marriage,

whenever there's something wrong, the wife asks for a date night.

You and I talked about that.

That's so hard because then you never view date nights as positive. It's just always, always, there's something wrong. She wants a date night. Yeah. I think that can be hard. I think, yeah,

being proactive is a huge component of it, right? Having conversations. I think having conversations when they're small, when the issues are small, because sometimes I think the issues seem like they're small and then they fester and fester and fester and then they become this big thing and it's almost I think it can it can be a spot

where you're almost unable to have a conversation that's even sweet or you're walking into it with a level head because it's just it's been something that's going on for months and it's something that really annoys you or really is you're seeing as a sign of unhealth. And then it's, you know, to a critical point rather than saying, hey, when you, you know.

Leave the toilet seat out.

That was funny.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, the million little things that happen in the house, right? But, you know, or, you know, when you say it, say something to me this way, or when you come home and you're not engaged with our kids or me, you know,

you know, whatever it is, right?

That can be a huge thing. Yeah, don't save it all up for one big time we we unfortunately we have a history of for a number of years i think we made it through this last vacation we did it was the first year for a number of years we

we most years we take a fall just

two nights away we like to go to traverse city and enjoy

just the fall and the colors and all that kind of stuff

and for years in a row that was always

Usually on the way home, in the car,

trapped in the car for a couple hours.

But this year we didn't.

This year we did it two days before the vacation.

But it's like, we would accidentally save up all this stuff that we've been frustrated with each other about, and then it would all of a sudden come out.

Well, it's kind of interesting how couples are so different. Like, that's how you guys operate, where we more operate on like, tell each other everything when we think it. Like lack of impulse control and we talk about hard things like all the time, which sometimes can be damaging when it's not thought

through. So just different dynamics. Yeah, I think regardless you have to learn how to fight well. One of the things that I like to say is you have to fight like you're on the same team. I like the analogy of, and this probably only works for men, but the analogy of like a basketball team, right? When two guys on a basketball team, on a good basketball team,

when they're getting a rebound and they're on the same team, they'll say to each other, same team, so that way they don't wrestle for the ball. There's nothing more embarrassing than two players from the same team

wrestling over the ball and either losing it or traveling or whatever, right?

Happens in kids' sports.

Kids' sports, right?

It's very understated.

Yes.

And so sometimes when Elizabeth and I are fighting, we'll, I'll say, or she'll say, like, we're on the same team. And so it's just reorienting, like, we're fighting with each other right now for something to find resolution, rather than seeing each other as opponents saying, one of us has to win.

When you see, like, you guys are on the same team trying to win together, you know, it's easier to find compromise or say, like, yeah, I might be wrong, but I don't have to lose. Like we're on the same team and we're winning.

You can win-win.

So I think that's part of it, seeing it that way. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think, man, encouraging him and seeing the things that your husband does right, that's a huge thing. Yeah, I think, you know, there's the old adage, like men rarely get complimented. Like, you know, you'll, most men, if you ask them,

like someone said something nice about either the way they dressed, the way that they did their hair, the way that, you know, like whatever, and they haven't changed it since, because that's like probably one of the only compliments

that they've heard about them. And so, you know, I'm not saying that men are, you know, it's awful for men. I'm just saying, you know, that's one of the, probably one of the hidden downsides of.

Yeah, so like as a wife, just like you're quick to criticize, be quick to compliment, right? Like it's not just. Yeah, I would say if you're quicker to criticize

than you are to compliment, that's important. I would say for me, and this is just a me thing. See, and you guys made fun of my compliment sandwich. Well, I was... This was kind of what we were saying, right? Compliment and complain.

Well, I was going to say, I hate compliment sandwiches. Oh, okay, well. I think when you used to be my boss, one of the things I would say to you, you would start compliment sandwiching me, and I would be like, I want to hear it. It all comes out now. But you were also really good as a boss

to be able to say things well, like saying when things were going well, and I knew that things were okay. And so sometimes my wife does the same thing. I'm like, please, I just wanna know what's going on. Don't keep me in suspense any longer.

All right, so no compliment sandwich, but just even-handed of both charisma hands. If your husband likes compliment sandwiches, do that. But I'm someone who can't. I'm like, please, I know where you're going with this.

There's something bad coming in the middle of this.

Well, I think being aware that what you're saying is critical, maybe not in a bad way, critical a lot of times is negative, but I think you can be critical in a loving way. But to realize your words have weight and to be really careful. If you're going to say something that needs to be changed, do so with a loving heart. Yeah. And with not like a smile on your face, but just with a countenance that like, I love

you and I care about you because I think there's a way that you can say something that you're like, oh, I don't really, you know, you're saying something different than what your body language is portraying. But you just said genuinely, if your husband knows I genuinely love you, I would hope that that would be heard in a different tone than if you were questioning if I loved you.

Yeah. Yeah, I'll give you this. This is one more, but this is Mitchell's secret on Entering into any sort of conflict is just start asking questions One either you've misunderstood something or you don't understand the full picture of something that can be really important so asking a question if you fly in like you're gonna into a fight just Gung-ho and you don't understand the context that makes you look real stupid. But on the other hand, right, if someone has really done something wrong

or has the wrong mindset and you ask them questions, you know, that's another way to get clarity. They can clearly state their wrong opinion or whatever wrong worldview or outlook they have. Then you can address it like, hey, these are your words, this is what you said, and this is exactly what I want to talk about. But asking questions is a humble way to approach it. Related to this, another listener question, they write, I was just reading Genesis 3 and verse 16 says, and this is a quote, to the woman he said, I will make your pains and

childbearing very severe and painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you. So here's the rest of the question then. If the Garden of Eden before the fall was God's perfect design, is the dynamic of husband being in charge or leading or ruling his wife actually not part of his perfect good design and instead it's actually part of woman's curse or punishment for sin?

So questions about Genesis 3.16, specifically that part says her desire will be for her husband and he will rule over you. Okay, does that mean that this whole submission, authority structure thing is actually a result of the fall or was it there before the creation? That's the question.

So I could be wrong, but this is how I view that part in Genesis is that submission and authority isn't sinful. I mean, we submit to God, it is good. But the fact that the wife now desires to basically have authority over her husband, like that

is the curse, is that wives will want that. We will want to be the ones in charge, but our husbands will rule over us.

Yeah, that desire isn't like she's got the hots for her husband. That desire is to rule over her.

Yes, exactly.

Same word used in Genesis 4, Cain and Abel. Yeah, exactly.

And I'm not sure that I articulated that very well. But as far as authority and submission, it is good as part of God's good design for marriage. This is a spot where maybe we're adding

a little bit more to Scripture than we need to, right? Like the clear point in this is saying that there is an authority structure that's given post

fall, right? And the fall is that that design will now be broken. Correct, right. So

so to say that like, well this isn't how it was in pre-fall. Well, the Bible never says that. It says that this is the plan for marriage. And if we believe that God is immutable or he does not change, right, why would he say, well, here's one plan and like, oh, you ruined it. I didn't see that coming. Well, here's a

different plan. Also, isn't that why Adam, we said, you know, Adam had the first sin. He did not lead his life well in the garden. He did not. He was there. Yeah, I understand that is, people disagree on that. But right, like can't you say, I mean that scripture says, you know.

Yeah.

Well, who's credited, you know, like who's later on in scripture, right? It talks about Adam being the one who saved her, so.

Yeah, okay. Stephanie, challenge me or tell me your thoughts,

because this is hard.

It is really hard. I think I actually wrote an article on Resound. So if you are wanting to look at this, it's just a really, a really quick one. But it's called Divine Discipline or Unfair Treatment. Because I think so often as women, we could look at that verse and say, well, that's not fair that God punished her in that way.

But basically, one of the things that I've thought through with specifically the marital design is that we see that God's design is good, right? There's a verse in the New Testament, help me with where it's found, but it talks about Adam, it talks about the husband being in the authoritative role based on he was created first. Yeah, 1st Symphony chapter 2. So we see authoritatively Adam already is the head of the household before Eve is getting this curse, getting this consequence of her actions. And so we

know that it's not because of her sin that now Adam is in charge. It was God's design for Adam to be the head of the household before that happened. And so I think that's unfair to say that that's part of the fall is that he's in control. I think we can clearly see that that is part of God's design and then that design is now broken because of like what you guys were saying with that desire. It's an unhealthy desire.

Like what you were talking about in the next verse, that same word for desire there is, sin is crouching at the door, it has desire over you. So this is an unhealthy desire that is now going to come from Eve towards her husband.

It's not like this conflict of who's in charge.

Right, the result of the fall is not the authority and submission structure. Actually, the result of the fall is that

Eve's not gonna like it.

Yeah, men and women are going to try to upend God's authority and submission structure. I also think we have to read this with the understanding that this can't mean something to us that it didn't mean to its original audience, right? So if you look at Jewish culture, like birth order or like, you know, quote unquote birth order, like that mattered.

And so, you know, Adam being created first, like there was already a natural authority that he had. So no one who would have read this for the first time would have thought, oh yeah, maybe they were like equals and that this was like some sort of like, you know, symbiotic, perfect relationship where no one really had authority. They would have read this going, oh, the one who was born first or the one who was created first, that's the person who would have the natural authority.

Like nobody's reading this thinking, well is this a case for egalitarianism or where men and women.

Can you say what egalitarianism is, just in case somebody's not familiar.

Where men and women are mutually submitting to each other that there is no true headship or leadership within a marriage. Yeah, so this is a great question. This is something we do have some blogs about at resominated.cc, feel free to check those out.

We'll link those in the show notes. Like Mitch mentioned, the Order of the Creation, the Order of the Fall are both instances that we see in Genesis 1 and 2 and then 3. That point to God's design for the hierarchical structure between between husband and wife, men and women, and then also in Genesis chapter 3 another thing is, you know, when God comes looking for who's responsible for the sin, He doesn't call for Eve, He calls for Adam. He asks for Adam to give

an account for his family. He knows that Adam is responsible for what happened. And then in the New Testament, Romans chapter 5, yeah, it's Adam who's credited with the fall of all humankind into sin. Yeah, so I mean if you're gonna make a shot and take a shot at the Bible for being misogynistic, you have to have, you can't be heavy-handed, right? It's not that, well, you know, you know, Adam meant something more to God than Eve did. And then forget that, well, Adam also got the brute of the punishment, you know? Like,

I think we sometimes as a culture impose something on scripture and we say, well, look at it's being sexist. Like, no, like, you know, part of this, this design is that men are supposed to be the leaders. And at the same time, they're the ones culpable. Yeah, one of the ways that we summarize the Bible's teaching on this topic is that we say God has made men and women equal in value and yet distinct in role.

I think when you see God's good design for the beautiful thing that it is, it just makes me excited to want to live it out. If you're kind of questioning, is this really what's best for me? You're not going to want to submit to your husband, but if you can see in the Bible that this is God's beautiful

design, well, yeah, sign me up for that. I want that marriage. Right. It is really important to understand this. Yeah, it's not a result of sin, of the fall, that things are this way. This was God's good design. And thus, it's how it should be for believers, people who are in Christ, who are sort of reversing, God is reversing the curse amongst his people.

Yeah.

Yeah. The funny thing is we would never have this conversation about like headship and like children.

You know, when it comes to children,

like no one's saying, well, like, oh, we should all make, everyone should make the decisions equally within a household, like parents and children. Like, oh, there's like a good order. Anyone who's been a parent for a minute understands that like, that would be terrible.

Like a three-year-old, I think, asked me recently if she could run with knives. Like, no, like that's a terrible idea. And like, there is a good order that God's made things. Um, and sometimes, I don't know. I think again, we're just imposing kind of a cultural bias onto scripture and that's unfair, that's unfair to scripture and how we live it out.

Awesome. Well, ladies, thank you so much for the conversation.

Yeah.

Thanks for having us. Yeah, we appreciate it. It was fun. We'll see you at home. Thanks for listening, everybody. It's been great to have a great conversation about these questions.

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