How to Navigate Dating as a Godly Man

Jon

So, Hey everyone, welcome to That's a Good Question, a podcast of Peace Church and a part of Resound Media. You can find more great content for the Christian life and church leaders at resoundmedia.cc. That's a Good Question is a place where we answer questions about the Christian faith in plain language. I'm Jon, I serve as a pastor at Peace Church as well as the weekly host of this show.

Jon

You can always submit questions at peacechurch.cc/questions. Awesome. Well, hey, after a little bit of a delay, we get to come back to part two of our series talking about marriage. And last time we talked about the woman's role in marriage and what scripture has to say about that. Today we're talking about the man's role in marriage and what scripture has to say about that. And I am here with Pastor Nate. Hey, Pastor Nate. Hey, thanks for having me. Great to have you. Pastor Nate is a family pastor at Peace Church. And here at Peace, we got to just host a men's conference this past weekend as well as talk about it in the sermon and so we are primed and excited to get to answer some questions about what God has to say about men's roles. So, Producer Mitchell, we got some questions.

Jon

Ready to rock?

Mitchell

Absolutely.

Mitchell

What does it look like for a godly man to have strength and gentleness?

Question #1: What does it look like for a godly man to have strength and gentleness?

Jon

Great question. So, yeah, I think Scripture portrays both of those, right? It's got, and they seem like contradictory attributes. On the one hand, you know, Scripture calls us to be men who are strong, capable to provide and protect, but also who are gentle, and especially Scripture describes Jesus as gentle, which I think unfortunately has sometimes led to the interesting pictures of Jesus as this dude with lots of product in his hair and very, maybe a little bit feminized, just kind of a very, that kind of a characteristic. But really, scripture portrays both of these aspects where a man is both strong and gentle. Pastor Nate, what do you think?

Nate

Yeah, that's great. And gentleness is a fruit of the Spirit, so it's something that when we have the Holy Spirit in us, we should see that growing and gaining root in our lives. And we won't do it perfectly, but men should display the fruit of the spirit. So gentleness is a thing that men should do. And I think that that's a very fair question. I also think that it says something that we wonder as men how you can do both, because I don't think they're mutually exclusive. And I don't think they're exclusive in any way actually I would argue you almost can't have one without the other It's not true strength to not be gentle And it's not true gentleness if it's actually just weakness that you know That's not the fruit of the spirit weakness and and being and power isn't just you know isn't Just intrinsically good, but power controlled well done in a godly way That's what the leadership we need for men in our churches and our homes. So, very practically, I do think that that can be tricky to portray both of those at the same time, because we do live in a culture where sometimes gentleness is seen as weakness, and we live in a culture that sometimes strength is seen as bad, no matter how well you do it or how gentle you do it. But for me, I'll just go to the home. What that could look like for me in my life is sometimes when my kids aren't listening to me, I am tempted to put the gentleness aside and go just really heavy into the strength side. And so sometimes the temptation for me is for that to be my voice raising a lot, my tone going to a place that gets negative really fast, and I'm still learning as a family pastor, what does that look like in my home to make sure it's clear that I'm not going to be stepped all over by my kids and that they're not the ones in charge, it's me, but at the same time doing that with all patience and gentleness. That's a daily learning lesson for me. What does that look like for you in your home, Jon, as you are a father of four? How do you lead with strength and gentleness in your home?

Jon

It looks very imperfect, I'll tell you that. Yeah, I mean, to go back to one of the things you said, yeah, it's like Jesus, strong and gentle, it's the same guy who both flipped over the tables in the temple when these people are totally disregarding God's word, and also who had little children come up and he prayed over them and said, welcome, bring these little children to me. So same guy, yeah, in short, in my home, it looks imperfect. I think as you talked about being strong and gentle, I think sometimes it's a matter of circumstance. Sometimes you're not both at the exact same time. Sometimes different situations call for different things or even different. You know, I think about each of my four kids and, you know, my four kids, you know, call for different things at different times. You know, some of them, you look at them funny and they start crying, right? You know, so, you know, discipline wise and sometimes, you know, it just takes a look or a strong word, whereas other ones, you know, they don't care. You look at them funny and, you know, they need they need some kind of stronger consequence that sort of teach them the difference between right and wrong. So yeah, it's a tough balance.

Nate

These are the questions where I always think it's hard for me because I want to be able to give a definitive clear answer. Here's exactly what it looks like. And these, I love that you brought up the distinction we see in Jesus. There are times where he definitely shows more of his strong, clear side. And there's times where he shows more of his gentle side. I even I had I had two different people talk to me yesterday It was sanctity of life Sunday at our church yesterday and so I as a family pastor I got to share a little bit of our position of defending and fighting for life in a culture that has really in some dangerous and grotesque ways turned away from that and devalued life. And I actually had two different people say, well, I don't normally see you like that when you seem to get a little intense there. And they weren't saying, wow, I really saw your gentle side. They were saying, well, I saw you kind of come with a hand of strength more. And so I love that you pointed out that in the life of Jesus, we even see that different situations call for a different emphasis. But what's cool about Jesus is we always see he never completely abandons one or the other but there are times where you see him Leaning into one over the other and so yeah I I love that and hearing how that works in your home with your different kids is is Is very cool because I do think while we none of us know perfectly what that looks like If we're filled with the Holy Spirit, we all have some idea of times where we're not showing gentleness or we're not displaying the strength that we're called to. I just think some of these conversations, if you're listening to this podcast right now, you probably know in your head, I have a little bit of a picture of ways I need to improve on the gentleness side. If you're a father or a husband or a man in a workplace or at a school or I know times where I need to step up and show a little bit more strength in a situation. I would say go from just knowing to doing. Do it.

Mitchell

Alright here we go. Here's the next question. What are ways in which a man should pursue a woman for marriage through dating? How do you start things off?

Question #2: What are ways in which a man should pursue a woman for marriage through dating? How do you start things off?

Jon

I mean, that's, that's, that's, well, yeah, when I was first starting to figure out the answer to that question, I didn't have a clue, unfortunately. So I think, you know, somebody asking that question, I think, you know, praise the Lord, you're in a godly place to even ask that question. How does a Christian approach dating? And that's, that's, that's a great question to be asking. So I think the short answer is you approach it with all of the high level of character that a godly man should. So meaning, you're approaching dating thinking, not how do I have some fun, not how do I have some short-term relationships here that are a good time, but how do I find a wife? How do I find the person I want to spend the rest of my life with and live the way God has called me to live? Unfortunately, I think in our world, dating usually doesn't mean that, but that's what it should mean for a Christian man is how do I find the wife that God has called me to be with for life?

Nate

Yeah, and the Bible famously doesn't outline an exact way of dating. You even hear jokes about how, are you gonna follow the Ruth and Boaz method where you go, she goes and lays at his feet while he's sleeping, or are you gonna follow the Jacob and Rachel method where, and you could go on and on, but.

Jon

Or you send somebody else to find.

Nate

Yeah. So my focus has always been, as I try to walk with young people through this messy, complicated thing that we want to figure out, what does the Bible, what does it say about this? What does it look like to walk through the dating path? Even some people don't even like using the word dating. But what does it look like to go from single to married in a biblical way. I think there are some principles that are wise and that are logical. I know for a fact that the biblical way to going from single to married does not look like the way that modern culture, without the Bible, depicts it and sees it come to fruition today. Because there is a flippancy that the world brings to it where they say, hey, we're gonna have sex, we're not gonna think about each other's feelings, we're not gonna protect each other's hearts, whatever that looks like, we're gonna date multiple people at once, or we're gonna either date so long that we don't even care about getting married, or so short that we don't even take this marriage seriously. So I know it doesn't look like the world, but what I also know is that I've seen some Christians who I think with good intention have seen where the Bible goes, I don't know where the biblical thing is, but I'm just going to try to do the opposite of the world. I remember one time being told by, I think, a very well-meaning pastor, you should never date anyone unless you know that you're going to marry them. And I took that to heart, and I thought, okay, that's all right. So then when I would meet a young woman, my first thought would be, can I marry this person? And I usually wouldn't know right away because I wouldn't know them at all. And so I think, how do I get to know them? Well, I can't get to know them unless I know I'm going to marry them. So now I'm in a real strange predicament. So I think there can even be kind of a reactive response to go, we want to be the opposite of the world, but I think the biblical wisdom brings us somewhere in between those two extremes.

Jon

Yeah, I'll tell you what, since having daughters, I'm totally in favor of arranged marriages. I think that's gold. I think they had it figured out back then. Yeah, and actually, I should clarify, so I laughed earlier and talked about how I didn't have a clue when I first started dating. I actually, this is just God's grace. I didn't have a clue what I was doing, but when I was, I actually met and started dating my wife at 13 years old, and now we're married. So that's just, that's God's grace, but I should just clarify. You waited a while to get married first. We waited a little while, yeah. We were maybe 15, no, I'm just kidding. We waited a while to get married, but yeah, I should clarify. That's what I mean when I say at that age, I had no idea what I was doing. It was God's grace that led me through. But yeah, hopefully, and I wouldn't recommend that model to others, but yeah, fear to place. Yeah, I asked that question, how do I do marriage in a godly way? And I think by having the right character, by not sleeping around, by having the right focus on what is the goal, and the goal is to get married, you've actually, I don't want to take us too far down this path, but you actually went to a college and had some friends where it was highly promoted of like courting versus dating.

Nate

Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

Jon

Do you mind saying a quick word about that?

Nate

Yeah, yeah, that's where I'll tell you one story. I had a buddy, I won't use his name, but there was a young woman that was at our Bible school that he thought would make a great wife. Now, he had never spoken to her before and didn't know her personally at all, but what he did is he found through some of her friends, he found out about her parents, and so he called her father and asked her father for permission to date his daughter, or to court his daughter, he wouldn't have used date, and what ended up happening is the dad called his daughter and said, hey, tell me about this guy that's in your life, and she said, I've never talked to that guy, I don't know that guy, and then it ended up actually leading to them thinking that he was some form of a stalker, or it went south really fast. So yeah, this is tough stuff, I guess. But yeah, again, when I just alluded to the truth is somewhere in the middle. I think just some very wise, godly principles for going from single to going to married is to, you know, as you develop some of those relationships, whatever you want to call it, courting, dating, to make sure that—I love what you said. The goal is marriage. I think that's clear. We don't approach this flippantly at all because—

Jon

I actually, when I was in high school, my youth pastor at the time said an incredibly wise thing to me that has stuck with me. He said, if you're in a dating relationship right now, it will only end in one of three ways. You will get married, you will break up, or you will die. Those are the only ways out of this current situation. And if you think about that, you realize, okay, yeah, I shouldn't really, like, screw around with this. There's only a couple of ways for this to end. And so, you know, just take this seriously and think about, do I want it to end in marriage? Because if not, it's going to end in a breakup or one of us dying. So, yes.

Nate

And I think that's very wise to understand that's the end, that's the end result. It's either going to be one of those three things, but also there's a process to get there, and if you get to a time where you think, you know what, I don't believe that we are the right fit, where I'm speaking from the man's perspective, because this is kind of what our church has been focusing on. So as a young man, if you think either, A, this is not the right fit, I don't see us being two becoming one, I don't see a covenant of marriage being the right path forward. If you hit that point, I would say now's the time for you to be honest, and it's going to be hard, and it's going to hurt, but you have to have an honest conversation. And if it's not heading towards marriage, I don't think it's fair to continue the dating relationship. At the same time, I also think that it's okay for you to have a little bit of time to try to figure that out, whether that's through some form of dating or courtship or whatever you want to call it, there is a process to get from single to married, and that's okay for it to be processed. I did have a time where I was at an ultra-conservative church and I started dating a young woman and quickly it became apparent that it wasn't going to lead to marriage. So I thought I was doing the godly thing of ending the dating relationship. I try to be really kind but really honest, but I actually ended up getting called in from an elder and saying, why did you ever start this relationship if you weren't gonna see it through. And I actually thought that, I really respected our elders and that man who brought me in is a great and wise man, but as I've gotten older, I disagree with his take on how that played out, because I think it would have been a shame for me to continue a dating relationship into a lifelong covenant of marriage if it didn't seem that God was bringing us together for that one very special relationship, that lifelong covenant of marriage. And so I just say use every piece of biblical wisdom that you can, because the road is tricky, but it's worth it too. If God is bringing you into a covenant of marriage, it is totally worth it as you try to navigate the biblical path to going from single to married.

Jon

So the tradition of having some time out for dinner to get to know each other before you really decide if this is your spouse for life, that's a good general tradition, and yet unfortunately the world is taking dating to an unhealthy place. So yeah, I think that's kind of our summary. Christians need to figure out that place of, yep, that's a good process to walk through, get to know somebody to figure out if they are the person that you're called to be with for life. Just don't do it in the world's way.

Nate

Absolutely.

Mitchell

Sweet. Let's jump into these two questions. What would you say to men who abuse the passage of scripture that asks women to submit? And what would you say to men who would rather give up their call to lead to their wives?

Question #3: What would you say to men who abuse the passage of scripture that asks women to submit? And what would you say to men who would rather give up their call to lead to their wives?

Jon

So the question is saying both sides, right? Men who take the passage and unfortunately land on the side of domineering, of being aggressive, and then the flip side of those who end up being passive. Yeah, so unfortunately I think throughout the history of relationships between men and women I think there has been a lot of that where men have been domineering and aggressive and not shown the sort of gentleness that they should towards their wives. That's true. Abuse has happened a lot throughout history, but it's also happened now. It happens currently right now. So to a man who is abusing scripture in order to abuse his wife, I mean, one of the things I want to say sort of simply is just, hey, look at the context. You know, like read the rest of the Bible. You're really missing it if you're using one verse like that to domineer your wife. You're missing the rest of what the Bible says about how you're supposed to be a loving, serving, sacrificial husband.

Nate

And I would say the same thing to a husband who's being too passive and not stepping up into leadership. Look at what the Bible says, because I do think that there are times where men on both sides, whether your temptation is to be overbearing and be domineering in a way that goes beyond what the Bible is in any way calling men to, or the opposite, when there's such passivity that it's very clear you are not following the Bible's call to be a leader in your home, to be the head of your home. I believe more guys in both of those boats know exactly what's going on in their hearts than they like to admit. I think there are men who are probably listening to this right now who could say, I know what side I'm more tempted, I'm more likely to err on. And it's easy, whatever side you err on, it's easy to make a caricature and to point out all the wrongs on the other side. I've had seasons where I'm being a passive husband, where I just pat myself on the back because I'm not one of those mean, nasty, bully husbands who are telling their wives they need to submit and being in charge, large and in charge. And I've had times and other circumstances where I am being domineering, but I say, well, at least I'm not being like those passive, spineless guys who don't have, but all to say, at least my own experience, and that's one of the only things I can speak out of when it comes to experience is my own, is I've known in both of those times, I've known what I'm doing. The Holy Spirit has been convicting me, and at the end of the day, what I need to do is get in alignment with the scriptures whether it's either side of an error And I know that sometimes it's tricky there. I'm not trying to belittle this question It's tricky sometimes to know my being too passive here my being am I being is this crossing the line into? Being domineering in a way that the Bible is not calling me to But I think in the majority of cases, the Holy Spirit in us, and as long as we're reading the scriptures, we know the adjustment, we just got to make the adjustment. Yeah, totally.

Jon

And if you feel like you can't see that, then hopefully you've got some people in your lives you can ask. Ask some brothers, what do you see? Do you think I'm too passive? Do you think I'm too aggressive? I'll also say, because I think a lot of the cultural movement in our world is towards men being more passive, if you find yourself on that side and you're looking for steps to take from being a passive husband to being a more active, godly leadership sort of husband, the first step is not to tell your wife what to do. I think that could be just like a quick caricature that people can get wrong in their mind and be like, oh, I'm supposed to be the leader. I mean, I'm supposed to boss people around. And that's not the first step. The first step, I would say, is to ask yourself, how do I better contribute to the spiritual health of my home? Think about taking a step like, have I read the Bible at dinnertime recently? Have I prayed over my family? Have I asked my wife how I can pray for her? Some of those kind of steps are the first steps towards leadership, leading your family to be a family that's aligned with the Lord, rather than saying, all right, I'm going to start giving out orders.

Nate

That's very wise. I love the practicality you started with there, too, of getting in community, because having guys around you, I've had guys in my life who have been able to point out which side I'm erring on and help align me to the biblical proper the way of biblical wisdom and because I you know I I I come back to a lot of the Holy Spirit convicts and speaks to you and the eye for me the way that the Holy Spirit convicts me the most is by bringing the scriptures to mind of what biblical wisdom is and so Get around a bunch of guys who are guys that you can say that's what I want to be like, that's the kind of husband I want to be, that's the kind of dad I want to be, that's the kind of man of God I want to be, and get around those guys and get into the scriptures with them and on your own, because that's going to help you to know what true biblical leadership in the home actually looks like.

Mitchell

Great, I think I've got one more question, if you guys are up for that. Here's our last question. What would you say to a husband who would say, what if my wife knows more about the Bible than me or is more spiritual than me, how can I lead her?

Question #4: What would you say to a husband who would say, what if my wife knows more about the Bible than me or is more spiritual than me, how can I lead her?

Jon

Great question.I think that's actually become a fairly common occurrence in our world. I talk to a lot of families that are in that situation.

Nate

I got two things off the bat that I would say. I encounter that conversation a lot.This makes sense, but sadly a lot of the time it is wives coming to the pastors here saying, what do I do about this situation where I study the Bible a lot more. I know more of the Scripture. How do I lead and guide my husband? But I love that this is a man asking this question. I love it from that perspective. I would say two things. Number one, I'd say you have a challenge ahead because it's time to get into the Word. It's time to learn, get in a men's Bible study, start reading the Word because I love that that man understands that there is something here where you go, hey, there's some practical reality to the fact that it's going to be hard for me to be the spiritual leader in my home if I don't know what the Bible says and if my wife is more well-read on the scriptures, if she wants to discuss theology with somebody, but it can't be me. So there's a practical challenge there. And that's going to take time. That's a process. But start today. Get in a Bible study. Get a study Bible. Set a time in the morning or evening where you get into the Word. Tell your wife about what you're reading. You're going to find most of the time your wife is going to be excited that you're trying, even in a way that maybe if you don't get into the scriptures as in-depth as she does in this season, she's going to love just to hear what you're learning, what you're wrestling with. So that's the first, is like really practically you've got a challenge ahead, and that's going to take time. But I think there's one thing you can do overnight, and that might be just say to yourself, hey, I'm going to learn the more in-depth things of God's word. But I would guess most men who have been around, if you've heard a sermon, if you've read the Bible at all, you know some of the basics, but you're just not putting them into practice. Start that right now. Go, okay, I'm gonna learn some of the biblical foundations of this stuff, but I know doing the dishes for my wife is, at times, and sacrificially helping her with things. I know speaking words of encouragement and blessing to her. I know that's good I know that being calm and patient gentle and strong I know so what's neat is like you probably know more than you like to think I still remember I Grew up with a dad as a pastor and when I went off to start getting my ministry training After the first couple weeks, I came back to my dad and I said dad you never taught me. I'm taking these Old Testament tests and I'm studying systematic theology and you didn't teach me all these terms and you didn't help me memorize all of these genealogies. Like what? You never taught me anything. And I really was actually kind of heated with him. And he said, I taught you a lot more than you realize. Yeah, you got to learn some of the more in-depth stuff, but you know the basics. And that proved to be true over time. I had to get caught up a little bit because I wasn't ever in Bible quiz bowls. And part of it is my dad, even as a pastor, he did not grow up in the church. And so he was kind of figuring it out as he went. What does it look like to, you know, we didn't do, some people would have been shocked to hear we didn't do Bible memorization challenges in our home and we didn't do a 30-minute family devotional time before dinner. But he did. He taught me the basics. I knew the basics. And I think most men, get into a church, start reading your Bible, and in one sense the basics are more simple than you might realize of what it means to follow Jesus, and you have time to learn those complex theological truths that your wife longs for you to be able to talk to her about and be able to lead her in.

Jon

One of the things I would want to say is just to the mentality, I think, of a man who's in this situation. I think it'd be easy, and I think this probably happens to most men who end up in this situation, you think, all right, my wife is more spiritually mature than me, and so you just kind of shut down. And you're like, well, I've lost the battle, I'm not even gonna try to play this game, I'm just gonna admit defeat and just kind of live in that spot. But that's not the answer. You gotta sort of shift gears in your mind and realize, all right, God has called me to this, even if I'm behind, even if this kind of stinks because I feel sort of made small or inferior to my wife in this situation, you know what? It doesn't matter. God has called me to this and I'm gonna do this. And so turn that corner, get into men's Bible study, start reading the Bible, start praying. You don't have to be a theology genius. You don't need a college degree in the Bible to lead your home, but jump in, embrace it, start learning and growing and practicing, especially the thing, like you mentioned, you probably already know some of the most basic parts of what it means to be a godly man in the home. So jump in and start doing it.

Nate

Amen, I love that. And so men, hear this message from Pastor Jon and myself. You can do this. You can lead in your home. It'll be challenging, but it'll be totally worth it. But start now. You can do this. And if you're listening to this podcast, you're well on your way. You're trying, you're learning, you're growing. Even if your wife told you to listen to this, you can start doing this. We believe in you, we're here for you, we support you guys.

Jon

That's right, amen. Awesome, well hey, thanks everybody for listening. Have an awesome week. Have an awesome week. You can find That's a Good Question at resoundmedia.cc or wherever you listen to podcasts.