Exposing the Truth Behind "As Long as it Doesn't Hurt Someone Else"

Hey everyone, welcome to That's a Good Question, a podcast of Peace Church and a part of Resound Media. You can find more great content for the Christian life and church leaders at resoundmedia.cc. That's a Good Question is a place where we answer questions about the Christian faith in plain language.

I'm Jon, I get to serve as a pastor at Peace Church and I also get to serve as a leader at Rezound Media. We love to hear your questions at peacechurch.cc slash questions so feel free to leave them there for us we can address them in later episodes but today I'm here with Pastor Logan.

Howdy!

Yeah we are in a series called Calling Out Cultural Lies and the lie we're talking about this week Jon I'm interested in your thoughts is as long as it doesn't hurt somebody else. I'm really interested to hear your thoughts on this. Why is that so bad? It sounds really nice it actually sounds like a pretty helpful guiding principle. And I know those listening believe it or know people very close to them that believe it. Why is that not a good guiding principle for our lives and decisions as long as it doesn't hurt somebody else? Well, it sounds very American, actually, I think. At least from when I was growing up, I remember people kind of talking that way a lot about what does liberty mean? And they would kind of describe it that way that, you know, life, liberty, pursuit of happiness. Well, that means that you can do whatever you want in America as long as it doesn't hurt somebody else.

Kind of like the, your freedoms and or someone else's starts or something along those lines, right?

You have your boundary line on your property and within those boundaries you can do whatever you want, but the second it goes into someone else's yard, then it's you're on their yard. Yeah, sort of logic. And so it sounds very It sounds like something, you know, a champion of freedom would say, right? It sounds like man Yeah, this is this is what Americans ought to believe. I can do whatever I want As long as it doesn't hurt somebody else and and I kind of get that You know, I think a lot I think I think myself, I sort of have that temptation towards that, I would call it in political terms, a libertarian mindset.

Yeah. Just wanting to go that direction, wanting to be able to do whatever I want. Nobody can tell me what I want. I think there's something even in the human nature that we want to be able to go that direction. But as Christians, I think – so we could talk about how there are some advantages to that kind of in the political sphere.

But also as Christians, how that is less than the ethic that we want to live by.

I think that's a good way to put it. It's less than what we're called to. And it's good to see the truth that is present in a lie because most lies have something about it that's true and something about it that's off. And I think there is something, you brought up like political aspects to it of a libertarian like that.

It is good that we have agency and self-expression and a level of independence. But there is a such thing as too much, so much independence from the wrong things. Like you don't want to be independent from something that grounds you and guides you. And yeah.

Yeah, I think that's actually one of the really important balances when we talk about the philosophy of government is that balance between freedoms and limits is how some would say it. Or, you know, we're going to talk in a minute about what true freedom is. But you want some regulation and authority in your life and in the country, but you don't want too much. There's this balance in between too much and too little, and you want to find yourself right in the middle of that. So anyways, all that being said, coming up very soon, actually launching this week, we have a class at Peace Church called Christianity and Politics. That's also gonna be available on ReSound Media.

So if you wanna hear some thoughts, some Christians think through, what does it mean to be a Christian in a political world, invite you to tune in on that, resoundmedia.cc, all the videos are gonna be available there. Four session course we're gonna be going through, so lots of time to talk about that more in depth. But for today, let's hone in on kind of that idea of freedom. Because I think if you're thinking about being engaged in a conversation with somebody who says to you, well, as long as it doesn't hurt somebody else, I'm going to do it. And that's my ethic.

Let's think about how we can think about it as Christians. So I think one of the ideas that I would put forward is that that's not a real definition of freedom, or that's not a Christian definition of freedom, I should say. It's not the best foundational belief, like guiding principle.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A Christian view of freedom would say that actually freedom is to be free from sin. Freedom is to live the way God designed us to live. That's where real freedom is found because we believe that there is a creator, we believe that there is an order and a design to the universe, and so the best human life isn't humans getting to do whatever they want to do because we know Jeremiah 17, 9 says the heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure, who can understand it.

So our hearts actually free to do whatever they want are gonna take us in the wrong direction, bring us to unhappiness, bring us to death actually. So actually what we really want, the best thing for us is to go God's direction, God's way. And so I think that's probably the first way in which that phrase falls apart.

Right, and that's a very theological, philosophical, like large picture way of viewing things. And I know for some people that can feel insulting that you're saying, you don't know me, you don't know that person and what's best for that person. But we're not necessarily saying like you need to fit in this box right here and we've built it.

We're just trying to say plainly like God has built us and designed us in such a way and he knows best of how we ought to live. And we're talking very big picture just in general. We should be connected to that. Like we should seek after and be guided by God's design for us rather than

be misguided by our own desires. Because we can be, especially with the verse you brought up. We do sometimes shoot ourselves in the foot with the things we want. We all know that. So it's not that hard to think that.

There's been a lot of movies made out of the idea of you get what you want and you realize

it's not really what's gonna make you happy.

Yeah, the point we're saying is God knows what we need and what's best for us to flourish and we should be oriented towards him and what he wants for us. And we can fool ourselves into thinking that what we feel like is best isn't actually best.

Yeah, I think of, so I'm prone to at home when my wife brings me a new appliance or something and I'm supposed to put it together, I am the guy who's always tempted to throw the instructions out the window and just, I'll figure this out, it'll be great. But I have learned over the years that it is usually better when I follow the directions.

And the reason for that is because the guy who designed the product is the guy who gave me the directions.

And so it's best when I use it the way that he designed it to be used.

I like that, talking about freedom, liberty, independence. If you're on a boat, it's not a good thing to be independent and free from the boat because then you're in the water and you can drown. There are certain things that you don't want to be free from or independent from because those are the things that you're meant to be connected to and guided by and use the word limited by or honed by. There are certain things that are supposed to help guide our thoughts and the ways we view things and live.

The way God designed us is an example, like in a big picture level, we should want to not be free from God's design. We should want to be under God's design. And by that, we are then free from sin and the things that are hard about life. So I think this is actually similar then to the lie that we talked about last week. Last week we talked about live your truth as a lie that is often sold and shared out there.

And we said that actually one of the foundational world views in that idea is relativism. That there is no one truth and therefore you live your truth, I'll live my truth, we each do our own thing. We talked about that last time. I think that idea of relativism is still evident here in the as long as it doesn't hurt somebody else. Because I think another foundational idea is that there is no one right way to live, there is no one best life, and so you do yours, I'll do mine. Who are you to say?

Yeah, yeah, it's so you know philosophers going way way back always the question of philosophy is what is the good life? You know what is the best thing? What is the best human life? That's what everybody's trying to answer. This approach sort of says, well, there is no one right answer. You do it your way, I'll do it my way, and we'll just, as long as we don't hurt each other, call it good. As Christians, we're saying, no, actually we can do a lot better.

We're not saying we're the arbiters of this. What we're saying is God is, and we're trying to just point to him.

Right.

Yeah.

Right. So I think there's an interesting conversation about how do you live in a country that doesn't necessarily have Christian – that doesn't have Scripture as your law for life, and so you could make some arguments about how – we've got to be able to sort of draw lines of what is liberty, what is – how do you let people do what they think is the good life without establishing Christian truth

as the truth for the country. So I think that's like an interesting conversation we could have about law in our country and how all that works out. But if you're talking with somebody about doing life as a human being and how to have the best life, what we're saying is that this mantra, as long as it doesn't hurt somebody else, is far below what Christians should aspire to.

I think a, I like the politic ones you brought up. When you think about the angle of policy, I think that that's just another good place to advertise the class that you're dealing with the politics and Christianity thing.

We're going to have some fun.

Yeah. And then when you talk about like just day in, day out, that's where this kind of lives is just among friends with different beliefs about different things like homosexuality or something like that. This is where this mantra kind of just enters into the conversation and then it kind of kills conversation.

It's like, as long as it doesn't hurt somebody, which I think what's best, and we've heard this, is what is that really saying? Because it's not as simple as like, as long as it doesn't hurt somebody else, then that's the guiding principle.

What we've been trying to say here is, that's not the best guiding principle, we should look at scripture for the guiding principles in our lives. That's less than what we're called to, we're called to more, we're called to not just what hurts people, don't do it, but what helps people, what's loving to people. But I think what's helpful in calling out cultural lies, that lie, as long as it doesn't hurt someone, as if that should be our guiding principle, what that's really saying is, I think that's a good place to take this conversation, what is that really saying, why do people say it? Well, you brought up relativism. Yeah. Like you can be your own God. Yeah. You can be the one to hold all the authority and let me also be my own God and hold my all of my authority. Yeah.

That's a great point. So underlying the philosophy of relativism is actually idolatry saying I'm God. There is no God or at least I get to I get to make the rules. That's kind of what relativism really does. So let's actually play out, you brought up an example.

I think it's helpful to play out some concrete examples.

I think the way that the homosexuality one comes into play is like, well, what do you care what they do in their bedroom? Yeah, so let's play that. Let's say that you're sitting across the table from another believer, because I think that's what we want to talk about, is how to live as Christians. So if you're sitting across the table from another Christian and another Christian makes the argument to you, well, hey, who are you to judge? Who are you to say this?

Let them do what they want to do. It's not hurting you. You know, let them live their homosexual lifestyle, have a same-sex partner. They get to do that. It's not hurting you at all. You know, what's the big deal?

Just let it happen and leave it alone.

Right. Assuming, I like that you brought up that we're both Christians, assuming we both look at Scripture as what should guide us in life, the word of our king that we should follow. I think that the best response is, I'm not called to ignore my neighbor, I'm called to love my neighbor. So that means that I should want the best thing for them. And I want us to live within God's design for our lives, including relationships.

Yeah, so one of the definitions I've given before of love is if you love somebody, you want God's best for them.

Right.

I don't think that's original to me. I think lots of people have said something along those lines. So if you want God's best for somebody and you've got a good friend coming to you and saying, well, hey, I would really like to live a homosexual lifestyle, you have an obligation to say to them lovingly but truthfully, man, you know what? That's really not going to make you happy.

That's really not the best thing for you. So yes, you can go to God's word and talk about, well, the Bible says don't do that. We can also talk about the consequences. We can talk about sin and its consequences. But also, you can just simply talk from the aspect of, man, I'm here to tell you, this is actually not what's best for you. This is not gonna be good for you. It's not gonna make you happy. I know this conversation can go in a million directions and is hard for different people for different reasons. But you could enter fill in the blank with a lot of different things that have to do with sex.

So you could say premarital sex or extramarital sex or polygamy, any of those things. You could even get into darker things. But when we are trying to say – we're not trying to say we're the arbiters of what's right and wrong. We're just trying to say the word of the Lord is, and we are trying to put ourselves under it as well. And so I'm not saying, I think it's important for brothers in Christ, sisters in Christ, when there's disagreement, to be humble and say like, I don't live perfectly into this either. I've been corrected by Scripture. It's hard to bring correction. So just being open and honest about like, I've been corrected by Scripture too.

That's what we both want, just to get back on the common ground of right. We both want to follow what scripture says we're under scripture and so then if you just go back to Basics God has a design and if he does have a design for marriage

We need to ask ourselves what is that design for marriage and on the homosexuality piece like God one of God's designs for marriage is for us to flourish and have children. You need a male and a female to have children. And so just on the face of it, that's clearly at odds. If that is God's design for marriage, if one of his designs for marriage is for children, then a homosexuality

relationship is on the face of it at odds with what that part of God's design for marriage. So we should be honest about like, hey this is a conversation about are we following God's law? Are we following God's design between Christian and Christian? That just be humble and honest about that. That's one concern I have about that one part because we're not trying to say as long as it doesn't hurt somebody.

What we're trying to say is how do we follow God's law?

Yeah.

And how do we love our neighbor in the midst of those disagreements?

Yeah.

Yeah. So one of the passages we've talked about in relationship to this cultural lie around Peace Church is from 1 Corinthians 10. Let me just read a part of it. This starts in verse 23. The Apostle Paul says, all things are lawful, but not all things are helpful. That's a great verse. There's so much to talk about there. All things are lawful, but not all things build up. Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor. Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience. For the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience. But if someone says to you, this has been offered in sacrifice, then do not eat it for the sake of the one who informed you and for the sake of conscience. I do not mean your conscience, but his, for why should my liberty be determined by someone else's conscience?

If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks?"

So there's a lot we can talk about here.

I love that first verse.

Yeah, there's a lot of things that you can do, but not all those things are helpful. And in the midst of this disagreement, again, just being honest, like what we want is to follow scripture and to be humble about differences you see of how to go about that. Just, I'm just, I want to be honest.

I want to love my neighbor and I don't view that thing as helpful. It's not, and I think that them doing that is hurting them, or at least stopping them from getting more flourishing, or at least living more into God's design. Just to be honest and open about like, what I want is the best for my neighbor, and I don't view that as helpful.

Yeah.

And that's amidst, I think, even things that aren't sinful. I think that's where the passage gets into. It's almost more tricky. What about for things that aren't sinful? Well, that's what I was gonna say. It's a matter of conscience, right? Yeah, so Paul Dix is an interesting director. He talks about some of the ideas that we're talking about here. Conscience and liberty. I think this is an important passage to think about in this conversation. So conscience and liberty, and he also says even if you are allowed to do something, maybe you should refrain from doing it for the sake of somebody else who has a weaker conscience, who doesn't think you should do it. I think in the Christian world, we tend to talk about alcohol is an easy one. There's nothing in the Bible that says that you can't drink.

Drunkenness is sin, but having a moderate amount to drink is not sin. But if you have a friend, a brother in the Lord, a sister in the Lord who is not comfortable with drinking or has struggled with alcoholism in the past, then sure, it's not sin for you to drink, but maybe it's better for you to just not do that in front of them. Yeah. I think this is a good just to recognize I'm not responsible for your actions. I'm going to express the things to you that I think are right and wrong for me to do and for you to do, but I can't, I'm not gonna be judged by what you do. I'm gonna be held accountable to how I love you and telling you what I think is right and wrong as a brother, but I don't need to worry about what you're going and doing then.

I've told you, that's my role as your brother. Yeah. Sure. Especially in the matters of, oh, is that sinful, is it not? Well, I might feel like it is. And so I'm responsible towards you and how I act towards you. I'm gonna tell you. But I don't need to be thinking about now what you're going to do and because I'm just responsible for me. Yeah. Yeah. So I think one way in which this passage makes the the point that we've been making is that, so if the ethic of the world is this cultural lie, well, as long as it doesn't hurt somebody else, if that's their ethic, instead the Christian ethic is love God and love neighbor. So it's a higher ethic. We have a higher power than ourselves. We are trying to do something that is honoring to God and honoring to other people around us.

Okay. But then, you know, Paul gives this stipulation about, you know, about maybe not doing something that you would normally have the liberty to do in front of somebody else. So let me ask this question, is there limits on that? If a brother or a sister in Christ feels uncomfortable with something you're doing but you know it's not sin, Right.

Is there ever a place where you should say, well, you know what, I am still gonna do this.

And I was putting myself in the shoes of the person with the conscious problem. Like if I'm the one that thinks this thing that you're doing is wrong, then I should tell you, but then not – I'm not sinning by you sinning if it is sin, if I think it is and I tell you. So like in that stance, but on the other side of the one being told, hey, I think you're sinning, but you don't think you are, you brought up to drinking one of – obviously, we do think being drunk is a sin, but just drinking alcohol isn't. Jesus did.

Sure. And so it's the Christian liberty thing of I can do it, but my brother, Jesus didn't drink grape juice. Well, it's just, so it'd be wise for me not to drink in front of a brother who considers it sinning.

Yeah.

Even though we would, does the passage use the phrase weaker brother?

That's usually the phrase we use from this passage. Or maybe it's a different passage we're thinking of.

But what I've heard, actually I've heard R.C. Sproul talk about the tyranny of the weaker brother. Of the one who believes doing A is sin, even though you would consider doing A not sin. And you believe it's a matter of Christian liberty whether you do it or don't. And so when you're with that person, you don't do it. But they're insisting that you should never do it. And they're trying to make sure that the church enforces that no member does it, that sort of thing.

That's right. That's why the question I'm asking is where does that line come in? Right, and that's why I put myself in the seat of that weaker brother of saying, well, just to help guide to that person, like you are not responsible for, like what you're responsible to do in that moment is to lovingly say what you think and then you're responsible for your actions.

But if that person continue presses the tyranny of the younger brother, the weaker brother, and is trying to. I think of John Piper. He told a story once of when he first went to his church. But the church had a very strong no drinking stance in the membership. And he said, I will not be a pastor here as long as you keep that rule. And he didn't personally drink, but he thought that it was wrong for the church to tell the concordance. You cannot do something. That wasn't simple.

I think something of of a matter of Christian conscience. And yet they were telling the members that couldn't do that thing. He said, I won't be a pastor here, even though he himself did nothing. And so, man, he put his foot down. Yeah. In a personal relationship though, rather than church politics, I think if a brother is really insistent that something I'm doing is sinning that I don't think is, I think the first thing to do is just get back to the common ground of in conversation about let's just talk.

We both want to follow the Lord.

Yeah, so you know, in one-off instances and stuff, I think that makes total sense. But yeah, I think there are boundaries and lines to which, man, at a certain point. So the example you gave, I think, is exactly what I had in mind of, at a certain point, maybe the brother needs to be confronted about legalism. Yeah.

You're asking others to do something that is not asked for by Scripture. You're putting something in the middle that shouldn't be the middle or in the middle, shouldn't be the focus. Yeah, in some ways it's, I hate to use the word because it's used so flippantly, but in some ways it's Pharisaism, right? It's legalism. You're fencing the law. You're saying, well God's Word says we stop here, but I think we should stop ten steps sooner.

And so I'm gonna draw the line there. So let's talk about some other kind of weaknesses of this approach to ethics of saying as long as it doesn't hurt somebody else. There are some ways in which it might not hurt or you might not think it hurts somebody else, but somebody does get hurt in the act. I'm thinking of things like suicide, for example. You know, how does that fit into this ethic? Euthanasia, assisted suicide, abortion.

Yeah, we think how to, so.

So the goal of this podcast is just bring up every controversial thing we can think of. Well, that wasn't the goal, but you know, we're talking about these big cultural lies and I think, you know, there's a reason they're so big and popular. They get applied to all of these big, hot topics of the day.

And so I think. As long as it doesn't hurt somebody.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, I think we I mean, we've said it. It's not a good guiding principle because we're called to more. I'm not called to just ignore my neighbor unless I'm called to love my neighbor. I'm not called to just to think, well, as long as it doesn't hurt somebody else, then they're free to do that, do them and live their truth. And then I can live mine.

I'm called to love my neighbor. And in the case of abortion, for example, that's my neighbor in there. Or in the case of euthanasia, that's my neighbor over there. Even if it's themselves, or you know, if it's person A trying to kill themselves, that's, he's my neighbor, she's my neighbor.

So if I came to you and said, Logan, I would like to end my own life, you wouldn't respond with,

do you? Well, hey, as long as it doesn't hurt somebody else.

Absolutely not.

Right.

Well, also, that's hurting you. Yeah, well, but I think that people- And that's sending a signal of like, I'm not going to just try to stop you from, and if you're my brother, especially if you're in my church, I'm not called just to stop you from hurting yourself.

I'm called to love you to get into a better place. Right, and that's where the whole thing we're saying is that the Christian ethic is higher than this ethic that's being portrayed. So we, yeah, you know, because you could make the argument all day long that, hey, me, you know, me ending my own life doesn't hurt other people.

It's just damaging myself and so it should be allowed. It should be fine. You know, people are making that case about assisted suicide. But as Christians, we say, no, human life just has too much value for that, that there is a higher ethic than saying as long as it doesn't hurt somebody else. If as long as it doesn't hurt somebody else is your guiding moral principle, then it's hard to stop someone from getting to a place of like, yeah, euthanasia, why not? Yeah. It's not hurting someone else. I should be able to be free to do that. It's like, well, no, you're my neighbor and you're called. I want you to have a life that's full.

Jesus promises life to the full. I want you to follow that one, that man, that God. Yeah, and I think, man, this is where people want to deny, relativism, people want to deny the existence of moral absolutes, but I think every human really knows that there are moral absolutes. There is such a thing as good and evil. We talk in terms of good and evil, right right and wrong, just and unjust.

And so we know that we need something higher. And not to bring it back to politics again, but I think this is where in the United States of America, I think there is some need for some kind of recognition of some of the principles that we were founded on, that we were founded on some basic Christian principles, that there is moral absolutes. And this is the problem, I think, when you drift away from that, is that when you come down to relativism, when you lose a sense of moral absolutes, some of these Christian principles, then your ethic becomes unsustainable. Just a thought I'm thinking of is, and you probably even had this conversation on this podcast in the past, but we're a bad Holy Spirit. Like you're not a good Holy Spirit. If, because we know as long as it doesn't hurt someone is a bad guiding principle. We know that a better one is love your neighbor because we're trying to say we're not an arbiter of what is right and wrong. Each and every person by themselves doesn't get to define their own truth, but the truth is in God's Word. We ought to be oriented towards God's Word and following Jesus and following his moral principle. We don't want to just shift away from, well, you can't decide for yourself.

We don't want to shift into legalism and say, so I should be the one to decide. Again, like we're trying to emphasize, we're not saying we're the arbiters of this or even your pastor is. We're trying to say the word of God is and the Holy Spirit himself, he's going to be the guiding principle. And so just if we're on the side of, I wanna bring correction to my brother, then tell him, and then pray about it.

You know?

Yeah. Don't try to be the Holy Spirit in someone else's life. All right, so wind it down here.

Last question. For the person who is hearing this and is saying, yeah, I love my neighbor, and I know what's best for them. So I'm going to go actually listen to this podcast and tell them what's what.

Because I love them so much. It comes full circle.

We're talking about freedom and limits. Talk a little bit about the right kind of idea of freedom and the right kind of idea of limits. I mean, what we've been saying so far is that we want to have the best guiding principle and ethic possible.

And as long as it doesn't hurt somebody, and ethical, and doing something that I, according to the scripture, believe is not right for them. I think you should say your piece sincerely and get on that common ground of like we both want to follow God's Word. Well, so you're saying if you believe it's something that's against the Bible. Yeah. Okay, so then they should go with chapter and verse, right?

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, but and that's my conviction. That's the level of my conviction, but if my neighbor then says, I don't think it's that clear. I think this, I think watching Harry Potter isn't as bad as you're saying it is. I'm trying to bring up a real example. That's a very real example. I would say like I want brothers and sisters to follow their conscience and don't do things they think is sinful and tell their brothers things that and sisters things that they think they're concerned about for them, but you're not the best Holy Spirit. So like just we need to be prayerful and let the Holy Spirit be the one to convict each other. Share our peace, go to Scripture, and share everything. You're not the Holy Spirit. Yeah, and then and then and continue to pray if we're convicted about it. But like we said earlier, like you're responsible for you and you're responsible towards your brothers and sisters but not for their actions. And so there has to be some level of peace there.

So not only do we not get to be our own gods, we don't get to be somebody else's god.

Oh, man.

What it says, love your neighbor. You don't get to decide what's best for your neighbor.

Yeah. That's a good answer.

So yeah, we're called to love our neighbors and yes to everything we've said thus far. And there are some times when you're in a gray area, when you might think you know what's best for your neighbor, but maybe you do, maybe you don't, and maybe you need to just let your neighbor figure that out.

Well, and be, in all sincerity, be sincere. I think people appreciate sincerity of like, I wanna be very honest that I think this is sinful and here's why, and then respond and be patient with each other as you work that out. Because it might be really good for someone to think, oh, let me, I didn't even know that could be an issue. Let me think about the issues that you brought up and that even if they don't get on the same page as you on that thing, it could bring up some good thoughts in their mind of how they can better follow Jesus and that's what we want in the end.

Yeah.

Yeah, there's some areas where scripture speaks very clearly too and there's some other areas where it leaves some openness. Right, and have Christian charity in that.

Yeah, that's good.

Awesome, well thanks so much Pastor Logan. Yeah. Thanks everybody for listening. I hope you have an awesome week. That's a good question. Always tune in, resoundmedia.cc.

You can always send in questions and follow us on social media. You can always send in questions and follow us on social media. Bye!