Bridging Beliefs: Catholicism in Contrast

Jon

So, Hey everyone, welcome to That's a Good Question, a podcast of Peace Church and a part of Resound Media. You can find more great content for the Christian life and church leaders at resoundmedia.cc. That's a Good Question is a place where we answer questions about the Christian faith in plain language. I'm Jon, I serve as a pastor at Peace Church, and you can always submit questions at peacechurch.cc/questions. Today I am here with lead pastor, Pastor Ryan.

Ryan

Hello, Pastor Jon.

Jon

And I'm also here with Mitchell Leach, producer.

Mitchell

Hey.

Jon

And we get to have an awesome conversation today about some questions that have come in about Catholicism and how it relates to Protestantism, which is a church like Peace Church and many other churches. And so we're going to talk about how those two things are different and similar and also want to let you know that if you've got more questions about Catholicism, we would love to hear them. So we're going to answer just two questions today, but we're actually working on a resource, a written resource, that we're going to release in the next month or so that provides a lot of answers to these kind of questions, because we're just seeing more and more people move from Catholic backgrounds into Peace Church, and so we want to provide a resource to our church and to other churches that answers those kind of questions about what's it like to move from Roman Catholicism into a church like Peace Church, a Protestant church. And so, today is just the beginning. So we'd love to hear more questions as you have them, as you listen today. So Mitch, you want to kick us off?

Mitchell

Yep, here we go. I grew up Catholic and believing in the seven sacraments. Can you discuss why or why not you believe in the sacraments and how you practice them? Lots of facets to this. I think we could break it down into, I mean, I think we should probably just start with what are the sacraments?

Question #1: I grew up Catholic and believing in the seven sacraments. Can you discuss why or why not you believe in the sacraments and how you practice them? Lots of facets to this. I think we could break it down into, I mean, I think we should probably just start with what are the sacraments?

Ryan

So my understanding is that sacraments connects to the Latin word sacramentum, which is in many ways Isn't it originally connected to the symbol that a Roman soldier would wear on their armor? There's this notion that it's a it's a symbol that denotes that you are a part of something. Sure I think either way whatever the root word is the sacrament is something that is Sacred is something that sets us apart. That's what I was thinking, it was sacred or holy, yeah, set apart. I think there's probably some overlap in the etymology of the word, but either way, it's the notion that it is something that you do slash wear slash ascribe to you that denotes you're a part of something. You're separated out for something else. And so for the Roman Catholic Church, they have seven of those. We would say we have two of those. But I would say, I don't know how much we want to get into this, right now, that is one thing that even in the Protestant world, the word sacrament isn't always the terminology used. We think of our Baptist friends, they would use the term ordinance for the things that we're talking about, for the two sacraments that we hold to, which would be, of course, baptism and the Lord's Supper. But in the Catholic Church, they have more than just those two, which are?

Mitchell

Baptism, confirmation. Confirmation, holy communion, penance, marriage, anointing of the sick. Holy order.

Jon

Yep, yep, so somebody's called into ministry. Yeah, sweet.

Ryan

I think those are special things, but do they hold equal weight in the faith as baptism and Lord's Supper? Right. That's what we would say. Probably not. Right. Special awesome things. Well, actually, I don't, I can't say it about all of them. I'm not very familiar with all seven. I knew that marriage is one of them.

Jon

Yeah, well, I mean, like last rites, we would see that very differently. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But going back even to the idea of just what is a sacrament, so like when we talk about them here at peace, we talk about their relationship to the covenants, that the sacrament is a sign. So when we do a baptism service here, for example, we get to do a short 10-minute message or so on what is baptism before we perform baptisms, and we talk about the sacrament as being a sign and seal of God's covenant.

Ryan

A sacred sign and seal.

Jon

Yeah, a sacred sign. So in the Old Testament, we talk about the signs of the Passover and of circumcision. Those were signs, they were visible things, they were seals or guarantees of the truth of God's promise and his relationship. So covenants in the Bible have promises, they have blessings, they have curses. God promises something and he offers a blessing to those who walk with him in that promise and in relationship and in obedience to the conditions. There's curses, there's results for disobedience. And in the Old Testament, the two visible signs and seals are the Passover and circumcision.

In the New Testament, we've got baptism, which corresponds to circumcision, and you get the Lord's Supper, which corresponds to the Passover. And so I think for us, there's a very different just context even to what a sacrament is and means, and even how it works. So for us, we see it as a sign and a seal of the word, right, it's the word of the promise that is really like the root thing, the main thing. God is giving a promise, and then there's this visible element to it. Whereas in Catholicism, they would say that the visible element, the sacrament, is the thing that actually does the work, that grace comes from the sacrament.

Ryan

So we'd also say part of the reason that sacrament, or part of the implication for us for sacraments is that it's for everyone who's part of the covenant versus the Roman Catholicism. I don't know if they were tied to the covenant because there are sacraments that wouldn't apply to all covenant bearers. Marriage is exactly what I was thinking of, or the Holy Order being called into the ministry. Those are things that can be applied to covenant bearers, but it's not universal for everyone who's part of the covenant. That's why we would say that the sacraments are those things that apply to everyone who is a covenant bearer.

And so that thing, that's a distinguishing mark between us and the understanding of the Catholicism is that the, for our understanding is that sacraments again, are those things that apply to everyone who's a covenant bearer. That's why we baptize infants. And that's for the, and then for those who confess faith, we do have the Lord's Supper, but they're not special, unique things for certain situations. Sure. Like we said, like holy orders and marriage.

Jon

Yeah, so we've talked about, so there's a difference in the number of sacraments, there's a difference in the context of sacraments, but if I may even go right to, I think some of the very core difference, I think, in how we think about sacraments comes to that, where does grace come from? How do you get saved?

How do you get right with God? Those kind of questions. So I want to read, I've got a couple of books here next to me, and...

Ryan

I just want to, I really want to emphasize this because I know where you're going and it's really important, especially for the person who answered this question because they'll see where we have some, quote unquote, overlap in our sacraments, right? We have two, the two that are in the Catholicism, so that must mean we believe the same thing about those.

And we would say there's gonna be some overlap belief, but there's a key fundamental difference that separates what we believe, not just about the individual sacraments, but the entire notion of sacraments, and that's where you're getting in. So I just wanna just go back, this goes back as far as you possibly can to the differences between Catholicism and Protestant believers.

Jon

Yeah, there's some surface level differences, and then there's some really deep, important differences, and this is really what led to the Protestant Reformation, things that separate out the separation of us from the Catholic Church. So let me read, this is section 1263 out of the Roman Catholic Catechism, and it's about baptism. So here's what they say about baptism. By baptism, all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn, nothing remains that would impede their entry into the kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin nor personal sin nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God." Okay, so I think that's just one kind of sample of things that they say about the sacraments, but I think for me that makes it really clear the difference. We actually, in our baptism services, are really clear every time to say baptism does not save neither child nor adult.

Ryan

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Whether it's a family presenting their child for baptism or it's a person themselves being baptized, that act is not what saves them.

Jon

Yeah, what saves somebody is faith in Jesus, God's grace that comes to us through faith. Whereas in the Catholic system, the sacraments are really, that's grace comes through the sacraments. I mean, they of course believe you need faith in Jesus, but they believe sacraments is how the grace comes to us. It's where you're, I mean, it just says it really clear, by baptism all sins are forgiven. Whereas you would say, no, it's by faith that sins are forgiven. So one of the, just to break out, as long as we're talking about Roman Catholicism, we might as well break out some

Latin, right? So, the Latin phrase ex oper, operata is how the Roman Catholics, that's what they would say, that's how the sacraments work. They just, they work. So we would say the sacraments only do something for you if they're accompanied by faith in Jesus, faith in God's word, a personal relationship with Jesus. Whereas they would say, whether or not you have those things, the sacraments just work. Baptism, confirmation, last rites, these things do work all by themselves.

Whereas we would say, nope, they only work because they're right there with the Word, they're right here with somebody's faith in Jesus. So the other part of the question was about how. How is our practice different in how we do the sacraments? Yeah. Can you discuss why or why not you believe in the sacraments and how you practice them? So do we believe in the sacraments? We do believe in the sacraments. We have a different list than they do. And we've talked about how we have a,

Jonthere are some very core distinctions in what we mean when we say sacrament. But yeah, how do we, how do we practice them that's different from Roman Catholic churches?

Ryan

I think when it comes to practice, as far as like how they play out in a church service, quote unquote, I think there's probably some commonalities, happens in a church service among the body of believers as part of the celebration of the gospel. That's how we would say we do it. We do it among the company of believers, something to be celebrated as we are seeing the sign and seal placed out in real life on the covenant family.

Mitchell

But that even can be different, right? You go to a Catholic wedding and they do communion and it's only for the first, you know, for the bride and groom where we would.

Ryan

That's interesting. Yeah, because, because I mean that they would say that the marriage is the sacrament. So yeah, I think the biggest thing is that where we start from that these are signs and seals of the covenant of grace. But then also there's the notion that we only have two. We only have the two.

Mitchell

Well, and I think even like, we would never do a wedding where only two people could take, you know, Have you ever performed a wedding and done communion at the same time?

Jon

No, I've always said no to that, just because I think, you know, the sacraments are for the church.

Have you had people ask? Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

Ryan

I've never had someone ask, but I would say no as well, too. Not unless you're gonna do it for everybody.

Jon

That would be kind of it, yeah, sure.

Mitchell

Yeah, I think even like you look at the difference, this determines our architecture in churches, right? You go to a Catholic church, there's the altar is at the center. And in a Protestant church, if you go to a peace church, you'll see the pulpit. And it's kind of saying, what is the most central part of this service?

Ryan

Right, and then we talk about that a lot. This is a little bit of a side note, but the reason I use a pulpit is there's a utility that's where my notes and manuscript and where I place my Bible, but there's also even more than that, what's more important than that is it's the symbol that the word is central.

Jon

Right. Totally.And that's also reflected in how we spend our time during the service. You know, in Roman Catholic churches, the message is usually like 10 to 15 minutes. The homily. Yeah, the main focus for them in the service is the Eucharist, the Lord's Supper. Whereas for us, the main focus is the preaching of the Word. Lord's Supper is really important, but the main focus is the preaching of the Word.

Mitchell

All right, let's jump into our next question. Can you discuss the Catholic belief of transubstantiation, the Lutheran belief of consubstantiation, and the bread and the wine as symbols of Christ's body and blood?

Question #2: Can you discuss the Catholic belief of transubstantiation, the Lutheran belief of consubstantiation, and the bread and the wine as symbols of Christ's body and blood?

Mitchell

Where do you fall on this spectrum?

Jon

We'll be right back after this break.

Elizabeth

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Jon

So this is where it gets back to what you were starting to say about that there's even a spectrum within Protestant churches.

Ryan

So yeah, we could lay that out. Yeah, so we're talking about the Lord's Supper here, the bread and the wine, the bread and the grape juice, and what actually is going on, I think is the nature of the question is. So transubstantiation would say that when you perform the Lord's Supper, that the bread and the drink literally, physically become the body and blood of Jesus. And obviously you're taking Luke 22 pretty literally when Jesus says, this is my body and blood, do this in remembrance of me. And so that's what transubstantiation means, that in that ceremony, the bread and the drink

become the literal body and blood. Consubstantiation, think of congruent along with, that the bread and the drink remain bread and drink, but they also take on elements of the physical body and blood of Jesus, that they're con, they're with, they're congruent. And we would say that neither of those is happening, that this is a symbolic act while a real spiritual thing is happening, no physical change is brought to the bread and the drink. And then even within more Protestant circles, I would say that our view is actually, so yeah, so you got transubstantiation on one side, so that's the Roman Catholic view, and then you move over to Protestant views. Consubstantiation is one, that's the Lutheran view, and then although I heard, I was reading online before this that actually Lutherans don't like that phrase, even though that's classically how they're... Yeah, I was going to say, I don't know if I've ever heard a Lutheran say, use that phrase.

Jon

Yeah, yeah.

Ryan

It's been, I've always heard it. So it's been applied to them.

Jon

Yeah, I've always heard it. Which is important to say, we want to be fair. Right. In the understanding.

Yeah, yeah. So they would frame it a little bit differently, but that's the word that's just always been kind of used to describe their position. Then you've got sort of far over, on the other side, you've got what's like the Baptist position of it. There are ordinances, not sacraments. It's the Lord's Supper. There is no special presence of Jesus. These are just bread and juice.

Ryan

It's just a celebration, right? I don't want to use the term ritual because that sounds like cultic, but it's...

Jon

Yeah, it's like a commemoration.

Ryan

Yeah, commemoration is probably a better way to say it.

Mitchell

Remembrance, I've heard. Remembrance, yeah, yeah.

Jon

Which it is.

Ryan

I mean, that's what we're saying. I mean, that's what Jesus said, do this in remembrance of me. But we are also saying that while no physical change happens in some mystical way to the bread and the drink, we're still saying something spiritual important is happening there.

Jon

Well, that's what I was going to say. The Reformed view is actually the middle view in Protestantism. So you got Lutherans on the one side saying consubstantiation, physical, human nature, presence of Jesus. You got Baptists on the other side saying, you know, no presence whatsoever, this is only symbols. Then you got us in the middle, Reformed view, saying that there is no physical presence of Jesus, but there's a spiritual, there's something spiritually special about Lord Sephar.

Ryan

Yeah, I'm completely comfortable saying that as the bread and the drink nourish the body, in that act through faith, grace continues to nourish the spirit. Right. I've heard it described too, Catholic and Lutheran is God condescending again in the sacrament. And the Protestant view or the Reformed or Baptist view would be that it's more of us being brought up. I think either way, I think we're all going to agree that it's something Jesus commanded us to do. We do this to honor him and to remember the sacrifice that he performed on our behalf. But as far as the question of what actually is going on, we would say there is something spiritual that is actually happening. This isn't just a commemoration. This isn't just a ritual. We're not just going through the motions so that memory is evoked in our brains, but something actual is happening as far as in terms of the spiritual elements of grace.

Jon

So here's a question. One of the things that historically has been said by many is there's been the accusation against the Roman Catholics that the Eucharist, the Lord's Supper, communion is a re-sacrificing of Jesus. John Calvin, no, not, well, the Heidelberg Catechism talks about it as an idolatrous thing, as sin, as something we shouldn't partake of. You guys want to talk about that? What do you think? How far do we go with that?

Ryan

Man, well, I mean, I was also thinking in terms of when Jesus says, this is my body, when he says, this is my blood, it's after he's broken the bread. It's after he's poured out the drink. When he breaks the bread, that's when he says, this is my body. When he pours out the drink, that's when he says, this is my blood. Do this in remembrance of me.

Jon

And so, yeah, so this is very interesting to me. So this is Roman Catholic Catechism, section 1367. This is them explaining that whole aspect of the sacrifice and what happens in the Eucharist. So here it is. The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice. The victim is one and the same. The same now offers through this ministry of priests who then offered himself on the cross. Only the manner of offering is different. And since in this divine sacrifice, which is celebrated in the mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner, this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."

Ryan

Whoa.

Jon

That last line really gets you, doesn't it?

Ryan

That, I mean, I was already not liking it, but that just went, they doubled down on that.

Jon

Yeah. So, that's the thing. A propitiation is an atoning sacrifice. So, that's what the Bible says Jesus did on the cross. He atoned for our sin. He gave a sacrifice himself that atoned or took away our sin on the cross. So, it's a huge deal. That's what we believe. That's the gospel. That's what happened on the cross with Jesus. And right here in the Catholic Catechism, they're saying that this sacrifice, talking about the Eucharist, is a sacrifice and it is propitiatory, meaning it's an atoning sacrifice, that what happens in the Mass when they celebrate it. That sounds a lot like a re-sacrificing of Jesus.

Ryan

That's what it sounds like to me, and that just goes against what Jesus himself said on the cross when he said, it is finished. When Jesus said it is finished, I don't think he's meaning for now until you do it again. Like, I mean, that was a once and for all statement.

Mitchell

Yeah, to be fair, they say it is the same sacrifice that they just say in some supernatural way it happened both in the first century AD and then it's also happening, that same thing happens when they do.

Jon

Yeah, so they definitely don't use the language of resacrificing. They would say, no, it's not a resacrificing of Jesus. But I think once you start to say that what happens in the Mass is propitiatory,I think you start to get into a place where...

Ryan

Or at any level that it's the same, it carries the same spiritual, sacrificial, saving weight, I just can't draw that argument from Scripture.

Mitchell

I think when you hear that, when you hear that this is propitiatory, That can be really confusing for someone who hasn't gone through this catechism and memorized it verbatim.

Jon

Sure, but more than confusing, I think it's theologically problematic. Kevin DeYoung has a book on the Haberberg Catechism, and I wanted to see what he said about question and answer 80, which talks about this. And they're like, they're wrestling with this idea wrestling with this idea of when they kneel in front of the Lord's Supper. That if it really is Jesus, the body and blood of Jesus, you know, if it's really been transubstantiated, then kneeling is the appropriate response. But if that's wrong, then it's actually idolatry. And so I think, and that's where it comes down to for us is we're saying that they're wrong, that it's not the actual body and blood of Jesus and therefore, you know, you're bowing down to something that's not Jesus.

Ryan

And this is why we're, this is why we say theologically practically matters. Is what you believe and how you behave, if those are mismatched, it's going to lead you to some dark places. So, yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's, I think that's why it was viewed as idolatry, right? Because it's, you're, you're bowing to something that's not God.

Jon

Right. Yeah. So, again, plenty of room for modern-day Catholics to, you know, they've got some explanations, and I don't want to move past their explanations. There's some nuances there that are important, but also for us as Protestants, just going to go back to there's some core ways in which we definitely disagree on how we view some of these things.

Ryan

And again, we want to say to the people who are listening, this is all by way of introducing a topic that we're going to continue to address. And so as you listen to this, submit more questions. It's going to help us as we formulate a resource that we want to provide. Again, because we have a number of people who are steadily coming into Peace Church from a Catholic background, or from the Catholic Church, or from a Catholic background, and we want to be able to address all of the questions that are relevant to there.

Jon

We love you. We're happy to hear your questions. We're happy to have you come. We want to walk it through together, think through what does the Bible say about these topics, how has maybe what you grew up with or what you've been taught, how is that different from what we're teaching and what we're seeing in the Bible? Well thanks guys, great conversation. Thanks everybody for listening.

Thanks for the great questions. Again please submit some more questions and especially we'd love to hear some more questions about Roman Catholicism and how you're wrestling with that as you're moving to Protestantism so that we can continue to provide good resources on that topic. Have an awesome week everybody! that topic. Have an awesome week everybody!

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