Anchored Assurance: Tackling Anxiety Through Scripture

Jon

So hey everyone, welcome to That's a Good Question, a podcast of Peace Church and a part of Resound Media. You can find more great content for the Christian life and church leaders at resoundmedia.cc. That's a Good Question is a place where we answer questions about the Christian faith in plain language.I'm Jon, I serve as a pastor as well as the weekly host of this show, and you can always submit questions to peacechurch.cc/questions.

Today I'm here with producer Mitchell as always.

Mitchell

Hey everyone.

Jon

As well as Cheyenne and Ashleigh

Cheyenne

Hello.

Ashleigh

Hi.

Jon

Great to have you guys here today. Cheyenne and Ashleigh both lead women's ministry at Peace Church. Ashleigh also has training in the area of counseling, and so we get to have a great conversation today about some questions that have come in on the topic of mental health. Producer Mitch, you ready?

Mitchell

Yeah, let's start with a bigger picture question. As Christians, how do we view the human being? Are we only spiritual? Are we only physical? Are we some combination of the two? Are these two parts of us related?

Question #1: As Christians, how do we view the human being? Are we only spiritual? Are we only physical? Are we some combination of the two? Are these two parts of us related?

Ashleigh

Simple answer. They're definitely related.

Jon

Crazy take. We're only physical. There's no spiritual.

Mitchell

Yeah, I guess maybe what would be some dangers of viewing us as either or, or maybe emphasizing one aspect more than the other?

Cheyenne

I think, you know, since we're our topic today is mental health, this question like very much applies, right? It's a question that we need to answer. So we need to be careful to make sure that we're addressing mental health as something something that affects our bodies and our minds, but that it also affects our spirits. And so it's all intertwined.

Jon

Yeah, I think sometimes Christians have made the mistake of just over, so the term is over spiritualizing, over spiritualizing everything and forgetting that we also have a body. We are at God made us both body and spirit. And actually for all eternity, we're going to have a body and a spirit put together. We are for a time when we pass away, our body's in the ground, our spirit goes through with the Lord, but ultimately we're going to have a forever body and soul together. Jesus had a bodily resurrection. His body and his spirit are together for all eternity. We will be too. So God made us that way, we're going to be that way in the end, and so we've got to address issues of this life in both body and spirit.

Mitchell

All right, let's jump into the listener question. It's a big one. Is anxiety a sin?

Cheyenne

You know, I think that's a hard one to answer because there can be a lot of ways of interpreting the question, a lot of reasons for the question to be asked. And so I think we have to be careful to just jump to say yes or no, right? Totally. To that question.

Jon

Totally, seems like we need some maybe definitions. What is anxiety? What is sin? All that kind of stuff.

Cheyenne

Yeah. So, Jon, how do you want to start us off with one of those?

Jon

Sure, sure. So, sin, I'll take that one. Sin is anything that is a deviation from God's design. So, anything God expressly tells us not to do or something that is good. That's what sin is. It's a, yeah, a deviation from God's design.

Mitchell

Westminster says that sin is any want of conformity unto or transgression of the law of God.

Cheyenne

How would you paraphrase that?

Mitchell

To paraphrase, I would say almost exactly what Jon said. It's transgressing against the law, so choosing to do something God said not to do, and then also failing to live up to what God has told us to do. So it's a deliberate crossing of the line and a failure to meet the line all at the same time.

Cheyenne

So sometimes intentional rebellion and sometimes maybe not so intentional rebellion, but just a failure to meet the line. I think, what is it? To miss the mark, right? Is I think the biblical definition too of sin. So then I guess can we move then to defining anxiety a little bit or some reading?

Jon

I also want to add a little bit to what you just kind of started on a very interesting road and we don't have to go too far down this road. It made me think of kind of just some of the deeper, some things that we don't even, aren't even aware of that we're doing that is sin or there's stuff that we're living in that is sin. So on the one hand, there are sort of clear transgressions of the law. The law says do not murder, you murder, that is sin. But then there's also a lot of things that if you do it and it's not from faith, as Romans 14 says, it's not from the good motives, godly motives, not good from the right heart or the right place, that can also be. You're just, you're living in sin because you're not living with the heart that God has called you to have. And just so that we're clear for everybody, you can't be perfect. That's something we've talked about in other episodes that until Jesus returns, we are people who will live in sin. Our identity is first and foremost in Christ. If you put your faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior, then you are in Christ, but you won't be perfect until he returns.

And so, you know, we shouldn't settle for sin. We should never just give up and just say, hey, well, you know what, I'm a sinner. I'm just going to sin a bunch until Jesus returns. No, we're fighting against sin and growing every day. And yet also just realizing that the goal of life is not to become, attain perfection in this life. The goal is to grow, but also to turn to Jesus every day and realize I'm not perfect, but Jesus is perfect and he's taken away my sin.

Cheyenne

I love that. And so, you know, before we move on even to defining anxiety, remembering too that there is now no condemnation, you know, to stick with the Romans for those who are in Christ, like you said. So, I think that's helpful. My mind can, again, before I define anxiety, my mind goes to, I get various versions of this question a lot of is fill in the blanks then is, you know, is this sin, is that sin?

And I think, you know, we want as humans so much to be able to control and to keep ourselves from sin and from needing grace. And so I think sometimes this question is asked because we want to know we're okay. And yet the reality is that we weren't okay with God. We needed Jesus. And so addressing our sin is really, it's not a way to see if we can, if we're in God's good favor. It's a way for us to see where we, where we need him as well as all the other areas of our life.

Jon

Yeah, our motivation is, I love Jesus, and so I want to be more like him. I know that it makes him happy, it brings him joy when I'm walking with him. So I want to do it for those reasons. But yeah, if you're operating from a position of trying to earn it, or become perfect, then you're missing it.

Cheyenne

Or feeling like you won't have God's favor until you overcome this one sin and it's gone and it's never a problem in your life again. So, I just wanted to, you know, acknowledge that and bring that into it if that question is being asked partly for that reason. So I think that then when we talk about anxiety, there's a lot of ways to think about it, but maybe one helpful way to think about it would be just to think about anxiety on the one hand of worry, where the Bible says, do not worry about your life. But then on the other hand also, there's like we talked about already, that there's a physical side and a spiritual side to us, and they're interconnected and they're intertwined. And so there is a part of anxiety that is physiological as well. And so trying to address both, but not be all focused on one and not thinking about the other as well.

Jon

So you brought up already the passage, Matthew chapter 6 says, Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air, they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not more valuable than they? And if I skip down a little further it says, O you of little faith, therefore do not be anxious saying, what shall we eat or what should we drink or what should we wear? For the Gentiles seek after all these things. Your Heavenly Father knows that you need them. Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things will be added unto you.

Mitche

llI think hearing that, if you're struggling with anxiety, what we'd call clinical anxiety, that might even sound harsh from Jesus, it might sound even unloving. So what's the difference? We were kind of talking about this beforehand, but what's the difference between biblical anxiety and clinical anxiety?

Question #2: What's the difference between biblical anxiety and clinical anxiety?

Ashleigh

For a biblical anxiety is lacking in a faith or a trust in God and worrying about things that we want to control that we can trust God to control. The clinical anxiety is when our body's having a reaction that's either warning us of something that's unsafe or that is just, we've been in an unsafe spot before and something bad has happened, and so our body's now responding to it because that's the response it's learned. And so it's very important to know the difference of why you're experiencing anxiety, what's going on, to be able to find which one it is.

Jon

That's very helpful. So you're saying that the word anxiety in the clinical world covers a range of things, but it's sort of an experience. It's a feeling that hits you in certain situations.

Ashleigh

Yeah. So I think a lot of times people, when they think about anxiety, they think about it as just thoughts in their minds, like bad thoughts, like there's something bad that's going to happen. And that can be the case, and that can be something that is coming from, I would say, like that kind of biblical anxiety or just a fear or a worry that we have. Where the other side of that is our bodies can literally just respond to anxiety. We can, our palms can start sweating, our heart can start pounding, our breathing can change, like our bodies, even if we're not having the thoughts, our bodies can just respond. It's the opportunity for us to have the signal. It's a signal for us to then say, like, okay, what is going on? What is happening? And allowing us to become aware of, are we having thoughts that are in the vein of worrying or fearing something? Or is there something that we need to be aware of that's happening outside? Or a situation that we can either take to the Lord or that just and see what he wants us to do with it? Or just something that we need to be aware of because we need to process something that's happened more than what we already have.

Cheyenne

Yeah, that's good. And some of that could be could also be sin, like we said, again, the overlap between between the two types of anxiety, biblical and the physiological or clinical anxiety. I would say, maybe just from my own personal experience, I would say that the physiological clinical anxiety that I have experienced is almost always linked to or sending me a signal that I need to sit and spend time with the Lord and examine where I'm not, where I'm not trusting him and to speak truth to myself, to preach truth to myself, to spend time in the word, to spend time just figuring out what is that fear that is driving me so much to this stress and this this worry, and what's the truth, and then even especially like who is God and what what am I believing that I can do that maybe I need to be trusting Him to do instead of trying to lean on it on my own strength or power.

Ashleigh

Can I ask a question about that? Absolutely. So when you said that you need to spend time with him doing that, how quickly, when you recognize that you need to do that, how quickly do you feel like you get those answers? Is it within like half an hour, a couple hours, or can it be like days, weeks, or months until you feel like the Lord really reveals those answers to you? Just to kind of give us some perspective for our listeners.

Cheyenne

That's a really good question. I think it has depended on the day and the thing. You know, at times it's been situational anxiety where I'm about to go into a recording or to go speak on stage. And so the Lord has been so gracious to help correct that even in those moments, like almost immediately. Like I'm dealing with some vision loss right now that has kind of posed a threat to a lot of things in my life. And I would say that has taken me gradually over the last few weeks, the Lord's been helping me with just identifying some of the lies that I've been, or fears that I've seen as threats. That I've seen as threats and there's no, you know, I think of last week in Bible study, we were talking about Job and Job says, "'For nothing can thwart God's plans.'" And so just clinging to truth is like that, that this is not a surprise to God and that I might not have control over this part of my life, but he does and so I can lean on that.

But it takes time. But I don't I don't think that usually something that so impacts your life is a thing you can just, you know, quick with a flip of a coin, just like turn around and have it figured out and just tell your body to stop. Stop worrying. That doesn't usually work. Feel happy, feel happy.

Jon

Do not worry.

Cheyenne

Be happy. It doesn't usually work like that. No. But I mean, I do think like in those in some of the situations, like I said, like I get I get nervous every time I go on stage and Psalm 23 reciting that to myself, I think there are things that you can do at times that are a quick, a quicker turnaround.

Ashleigh

Yeah, I would dare say that those would be called coping techniques. And that going to scripture or listening to hymns and songs that help our bodies and our minds calm down is a coping technique, which there's other ones that we might get to talk about a little bit too, but that's a huge one. Yeah, sure.

Mitchell

And just to be clear, coping mechanisms in that situation, a very good thing, right?

Ashleigh

Oh, very good things, yes.

Jon

That's an interesting point, yeah, because I've heard those talked about as positive and negative before. Do you mind saying something about that, Ashleigh? I've heard people describe coping mechanisms in positive and negative lights, but we're talking about them in a very positive light.

Ashleigh

So I find that very interesting because I've never heard them talked about in a negative light and never thought of them as a negative light. So I would be curious to hear if you could give some examples as to like how people view them as negative because that might help me to be able to speak more to the positive versus negative side of that.

Mitchell

Yeah I think not in a clinical sense but sometimes people talk about things like alcohol or some sort of addiction as a coping mechanism or some sort of unhealthy habit they have in their life as a way to cope with something. Is that kind of where you were?

Jon

That's kind of what I thought of that's what yeah I was trying to remember back of where I've heard it. I've often heard people just sort of casually say, yeah, that's why I drink, or that's why I smoke, or that's why I do this thing that's not good.

Cheyenne

I feel like the mom culture, women culture right now is that a glass of wine is how we cope with things.

Jon

There you go. So that's a good... Yeah, I've heard people very casually just sort of say, oh, that's my coping mechanism.

Cheyenne

You know, it's my glass of wine. Yeah.

Ashleigh

Yeah, so from a clinical standpoint, if you're a coping technique is a positive thing that you would use in order to help stabilize yourself. A negative, so a negative coping mechanism is something that is unhealthy. So it is, it's alcohol, it's addictions in various forms. It can even be turning a good thing into something that you obsess over. So I have heard people use exercise at an unhealthy level as their coping technique. Exercise in a healthy proportion is a good coping technique because it helps process some of the anxiety through your body. It helps just work things through and so that can be really good, but it anything everything in moderation so if you take anything and have it to be On a not healthy amount it like I tell my negative pendant I don't end it right. Yeah, but like healthy coping techniques are reading scripture and listening to hymns and just pray songs a lot of people talk about like taking a hot bath or reading or taking a walk or doing something that's a healthy normal thing in a normal amount of time that it would take you. You don't want to go for a 10 mile walk necessarily because that's again taking it to an extreme. And it could be used as an avoiding technique if you're just out walking for five hours or whatever it's going to be. But But yeah, just putting some healthy things around ways to process through what you're feeling and what you're thinking.

Mitchell

For listeners out there who might have someone in their life who's dealing with anxiety or depression, what would be some advice that we might give to them in order to walk alongside with someone as a good friend? What would be some things to avoid? What would be some things that would be like, yeah, you gotta say this, this is a really helpful way to walk alongside someone?

Question #3: What advice would you give someone whose friends is dealing with anxiety or depression?

Ashleigh

My first thing I would say is don't try to fix it for them. Just try to be present with them. As to what to say, the best thing that we can do is lean on the Holy Spirit to guide because each person's gonna need something different and in each different circumstance when you're talking to them. So allowing yourself to be guided by the Holy Spirit and what he's put on your heart, I think is the best thing, and just being present.

Cheyenne

Yeah, I mean, I think just to reiterate, not trying to rush them to change or to be fixed or even like making them think that that's what you want for them. But it doesn't mean that we don't still speak truth into their lives. And depending on our relationship, you know, I think we have a little bit more, like we've been, we talked about with the Philemon sermons, that we do have a responsibility for, to have a friend, to have some of those friends that we speak hard truths to, that we don't necessarily always hold back. But I think that sometimes we make it about ourselves. And like you've said before, like not being comfortable with someone being unhappy. And that's not our job, that's not our role as a friend is to try to make sure all of our friends are happy.

Cheyenne

Which sounds crazy, I think, for women, because I think a lot of times we think that is what we need to do. But yeah, to just to sit in it and I think Job's friends are a good example or a bad example of feeling like they needed to just fill the silence, you know. They did great the first seven days. They did do great the first seven days, that's true, to give them some credit. Yeah, they didn't totally mess it up but they tried to fix it. Yeah, yeah.

Mitchell

If I can give a shameless plug here for a lady of mine that I feel like does a decent example of this. I'll end a resound podcast. I think a lady of a lady. My wife.

Jon

Oh, I knew where he was going, but you guys got weird.

Mitchell

How about this? I'll plug a resound podcast of which my wife is a part of. I feel like Mom Guilt is a really great podcast that models just two friends talking about the guilt that comes with motherhood and how to avoid going into and embracing anxiety that I can't imagine that surrounds motherhood, but is a goodway of just modeling, hey, here's friendship, walking through this together, not experts on motherhood, but just experts on being friends to one another.

Cheyenne

I love their podcast.

Ashleigh

Yeah, that's a great point, too. Being in community and sharing what we're feeling anxious about and what we're worrying about with one another can give us support and accountability and a way to process it, too, that like we don't need to just listen. Listening to the podcast would be great, but we don't need to just listen to the podcast. We can also engage in community ourselves.

Mitchell

Yeah, I'll speak for them. I think their whole point is that they're modeling something that they hope every woman, every mom would have a friend who they could go to and talk about escaping the guilt of motherhood and replacing it with the good news of the gospel. But we're talking about this podcast. That's a good question.

So maybe another question would be, what should someone consider when seeking medical care or seeking care from a doctor?

Question #4: What should someone consider when seeking medical care or seeking care from a doctor?

Jon

We'll be right back after this break.

Elizabeth

Hi, I'm Elizabeth, one of the co-hosts of MomGuilt, a podcast with new episodes every Monday. MomGuilt is a podcast about the daily struggles of motherhood. Stephanie and I share real experiences of MomGuilt and how we have found freedom from that guilt through the gospel. Listen to us on resoundmedia.cc or wherever you find podcasts.

Cheyenne

I mean, a couple of things that come to mind would be how long they've been feeling this way, if there's mental health issues in their family. I think sometimes, you know, we don't want to become so quick to go to medication that we're not sitting and considering what sinful role might there be and how might community and the tools that God has given us, prayer, the Bible, how might some of those actually really be the only thing that we need. thing that we need. But it's sometimes we do need some medication or need some help, need a counselor to help us process through those things, to even be able to sit and to focus on a passage of scripture or to pray to the Lord and in a way that's like coherent and we feel like our thoughts are somewhat organized. And so I think that that's it is still good if you've evaluated all that to go ahead and yeah reach out to your doctor and talk to them and bring up bring up those things and I don't know what else would you say Ashleigh?

Ashleigh

I think you've you've hit it on a lot of the big things I think that for me I would encourage somebody to seek talk to their doctor and their doctor is going to guide them through a lot of questions. They're not just going to hand them, if you have a good doctor, they're not just going to hand you anti-anxiety medication just because you say that you've experienced some anxiety. But if your body's having these reactions and these responses, when you're not actually in an unsafe situation or in a harm's way, that's a good time to explore being on medication so that your brain and your body can be calm enough to process through so that you don't use the medication to avoid processing through what's going on in your mind and your heart but that it is it's a tool to help you be able to do it a clear and in a better way.

Cheyenne

Yeah and sometimes I think the doctor might just prescribe something really low dose and it might just be even a season of your life that you only need it for a couple months. That's been my experience is that I've not had to take it long term and it's been just helpful, like you were saying, to just settle my brain so I could process things and not have to be on it long term.

Jon

I think the way you said that, Ashleigh, was really helpful about that. It's not, it helps you get to a place where you can process the issue. It's not the actual solution itself. It's something that helps you. Or one way I've said it, I've talked to people about it, is that it's one of the tools in your belt, you know, amongst other things, like we've already talked about talking to Christian friends, praying, reading scripture, being a part of a body of believers. All those kind of things are things that can help. Medication is one thing that can help.

Jon

It's not, but if you treat it as, I have this issue, I have anxiety, and the solution is to say this pill will fix me. I would say in almost any situation, not even just anxiety, just life in general, that's usually not gonna work. You need a lot of tools, you need a lot of things involved to help you through something.

Cheyenne

Agreed. Well, I just think, I don't know, as you're saying that, I'm just even thinking about Jesus when He would heal. Sometimes He would heal them, but what He said was, your sins are forgiven. And so just how He addresses not just our physiological needs, our body's needs, but tying back again to that first question we talked about, but our spiritual needs too. So that, yeah, isn't a fix and then we don't have to sit and do the spiritual, like address our spiritual needs do. We need both.

Mitchell

What scripture passages speak to this topic or might someone turn to for encouragement?

Question #5: What scripture passages speak to this topic or might someone turn to for encouragement?

Cheyenne

Well I think Matthew, the one for Matthew is a good one. I actually have that on my shirt today. Matthew 6. I think, you know, cast your cares on the Lord for he cares for you. Psalm 121, Psalm 42, Psalm 23, so many of the Psalms, but I could probably go on and on. What do other people want to share?

Jon

There's a passage that I often quote to myself when I'm going through something that I'm afraid of, and it's Isaiah 41:10. It says, fear not for I am with you, be not dismayed for I am your God. I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand. I just sometimes will recite that in my head. Sometimes before I go up to preach or any just a variety of situations.

Ashleigh

Verses that talk about being strong in the Lord are ones that have helped me with anxiety that I've experienced. So I think of Joshua 1, 9 where it says, be strong and be courageous. But then the other one that has stuck with me for so many years, and it doesn't talk about being not being anxious, but is Psalm 27:14. A lot of anxiety comes from fear of not knowing where the what's going to happen in the future. Right. And so I've often heard it talk about how, like, shame and guilt is focusing on the past, and anxiety is focusing on spoken youth focusing in the future and Psalm 27:14 says, wait on the Lord, be strong, take heart and wait on the Lord and that has been one that I'm able to tell myself on a regular basis when I feel that anxiety welling up over whatever it might be. I can just remind myself that I can wait on the Lord to provide, to guide, to direct whatever it is I'm going to need and I can be strong in that.

Jon

Psalm 77 is one of my favorite passages to go to when I'm having a hard time. But I think anxiety is another aspect which it addresses, thinking of what you just said, Ashleigh. So he opens the psalm by talking about some of his pain. Has God forgotten to be gracious? Has he stopped giving me compassion? But then partway through the Psalm, he pivots and he says, I will remember the years of the right hand of the Most High. And I think what he's doing is he's trying to remind himself of God's faithfulness in the past to reassure himself of God's faithfulness in the future. Yes.

And I feel like that's what I need all the time is just, I start worrying about these things that are in the future. And I forget completely that, you know, for the years of my life thus far, God has been good, God has been faithful. We've made it this far, but unfortunately, we are creatures of poor memories that we don't remember. God's been faithful and he's with us.

Ashleigh

I think the Psalms are a beautiful reminder of how we can seek the Lord in our anxiety, how we can tell him every bit of how we're feeling anxious, and that he is our wonderful counselor and will guide us through it and help us process those feelings.

Cheyenne

I agree. I even I think I mentioned Psalm 42 as one of the ones and what I love about Psalm 42 is the psalmist says things that we don't think we can say because he I mean essentially accuses God of drowning him and it's like, whoa. can we say that that could like, but the reality is that God knows our thoughts and you know, he knows our anxious thoughts, it says too. And, um, you know, it gives us words to say and how to come back around and correct it. Um, one of my other ones that I was gonna read is Isaiah 26, 3. You keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on you because he trusts in you. And that's another one that has, it just like brings me back to have my mind stayed on him. To confess those thoughts that I don't like, the thoughts that are driving me to anxiety, just like the psalmist does in Psalm 42. But then the psalmist also comes back and says, "'Lord is my salvation, I will again praise him.'" And so, to do that too. We could probably go on and on, I think, just bouncing back and forth, sharing these.

Jon

Well, this has been awesome. If I could try to wrap up, and I don't think I could summarize too succinctly everything that we just said, but to try to bring it back a little bit, the original question, I think, from the listener was, is anxiety a sin? And I think our answer is a little bit about more practical in the sense that the way that you address that is by yes. I think all of us as human beings face a lack of faith. Matthew 6 seems to draw that out. And so on the one hand, we need to grow in our faith and our trust in the Lord. And we can do that by receiving encouragement from fellow believers by studying scripture by prayer. And also we are creatures that have bodies and chemical imbalances and struggles. And so we need to also bring in other professional help, sometimes doctors and things like that.

So awesome. Well, hey, everybody, it's been an awesome conversation. Thank you so much for your time and for having it. And thank you everybody for listening. We hope you have an awesome week. We hope you have an awesome week.

You can find That's a Good Question at resoundmedia.cc or wherever you listen to podcasts.